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  1. #11
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    On the contrary... within the knowledge of the existence of God, we cannot see 'infinite' as endless 'finite', but finite as sub-infinite. Causation is a necessity of the sub-infinite, such as time (before/after, if/then, etc) but the infinite simply is, as in... it never wasn't and never won't.
    Erm...what exactly does "sub-infinite" mean?

    A lot of spooky language in this thread, bordering on being bombastic
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  2. #12

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    The proofs for God which interest me at the minute include, principally, this one:-

    That we live in a lawful existence, that is to say that existence is governed by discoverable laws, whether they are physical, chemical, biological, there are laws and these are independent of the human mind, they will happen whether we humans observe them or not, understand them or not, believe in them or not, investigation and research results or has resulted in the discovery of these laws, they are not inventions of the human mind.

    This lawful reality being a discovered by man, being no invention of man, it is no less irrational to suppose that God is a comforting invention of the human mind than that gravity is a comforting invention.

    It is possible to object that gravity is evident, empirically proven from direct observation and a theory based upon a testable, falsifiable thesis however it is not gravity per se that is in question but whether there are objective laws outside of the human mind and gravity or other principles similarly verified prove this also.

    This lawful ordered existence is an allusion and what it alludes to is a God, of this I'm absolutely sure, it is in this sense that the worlds religions have affirmed that we are created in Gods image and that "creation" honours God, however this leaves open A LOT of questions, is God conscious of us, is God sentient in any way relating to mankind or reality, is God good or evil or neutral and even indifferent to the world, existence or mankind, does mankind have an afterlife and does that have anything to do with God?

    I dont have all the answers yet, I'm still looking but to be honest presently most of my ideas correspond to those of the RCC and Pascal's reasoning.

  3. #13
    Ginkgo
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    And so he said unto them, "The argumentation is ordained and shall come in a wave of locusts and AIDS".

  4. #14
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Erm...what exactly does "sub-infinite" mean?

    A lot of spooky language in this thread, bordering on being bombastic
    Sorry for my poor explanation, there are inherent issues with putting the infinite into a finite sense like words!

    In every sense, God has no beginning or end. God simply is. God's qualities are infinite (infinite love, infinite power, infinite wisdom, etc). However, because we live in a finite world with boundaries and limitations, we tend to mentally quantify 'infinite' as endless-finiteness rather than a state of being where the concept of finite-ness is not found.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This lawful ordered existence is an allusion and what it alludes to is a God, of this I'm absolutely sure, it is in this sense that the worlds religions have affirmed that we are created in Gods image and that "creation" honours God, however this leaves open A LOT of questions, is God conscious of us, is God sentient in any way relating to mankind or reality, is God good or evil or neutral and even indifferent to the world, existence or mankind, does mankind have an afterlife and does that have anything to do with God?

    I dont have all the answers yet, I'm still looking but to be honest presently most of my ideas correspond to those of the RCC and Pascal's reasoning.
    I believe you are on the right path, my friend! Continue seeking truth and you will most certainly find it.

    Just as with natural laws existing independent of our discovery of them, such is the same of God. For God loved the people of the world so much that God sent His son into the world, that whoever trusts His son, Jesus, will discover the meaning of life as well as life beyond death.

    Jesus is God entered into His own creation, and as well as being the answer we're all looking for, provided a human-sized view of the attributes of God. So, if you want to know what God is like, look to Jesus Christ.

  6. #16
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    On the contrary... within the knowledge of the existence of God, we cannot see 'infinite' as endless 'finite', but finite as sub-infinite. Causation is a necessity of the sub-infinite, such as time (before/after, if/then, etc) but the infinite simply is, as in... it never wasn't and never won't.

    And as for proving it one way or another, don't bother. As with the binary nature of what is and isn't infinite, such is belief in God. You either do or you don't, and it's up to each person to decide. Of course, God exists whether anyone believes in Him, but belief is in the hands of each person.
    I won't follow you into that briar parch of metaphysics. Just tell me who god's granny is.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I won't follow you into that briar parch of metaphysics. Just tell me who god's granny is.


    It is said that the 'fear' (reverence) of God is the beginning of wisdom. I'd like to personally add that the beginning of the reverence of God is realizing that beyond God there is no greater being. It can be a challenge to wrap one's head and heart around, I think because God is the only one this applies to, and everything else we're used to functions in some kind of hierarchy where there is something above as well as below. With God there is nothing 'above', and all things are below.

    At first, this can be a terrifying thing to accept, but the truth is God is a Creator, not a destroyer, and at that, a Creator that loves His creation with such a love that He gave His begotten son. Know any fathers who would allow their children to die for you? So on one hand, God is the only one in which we ought to fear, and yet if we believe on His Son we can come before God without fear of destruction.

  8. #18
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    Sorry for my poor explanation, there are inherent issues with putting the infinite into a finite sense like words!
    Indeedy there is, since more often than not the words themselves don't have any meaning or comprehension. The three infinite you gave are wonderful examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    In every sense, God has no beginning or end. God simply is. God's qualities are infinite (infinite love, infinite power, infinite wisdom, etc). However, because we live in a finite world with boundaries and limitations, we tend to mentally quantify 'infinite' as endless-finiteness rather than a state of being where the concept of finite-ness is not found.
    How do you know all of this? What is your criteria for making this determination?
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    I believe you are on the right path, my friend! Continue seeking truth and you will most certainly find it.

    Just as with natural laws existing independent of our discovery of them, such is the same of God. For God loved the people of the world so much that God sent His son into the world, that whoever trusts His son, Jesus, will discover the meaning of life as well as life beyond death.

    Jesus is God entered into His own creation, and as well as being the answer we're all looking for, provided a human-sized view of the attributes of God. So, if you want to know what God is like, look to Jesus Christ.
    I disagree with some of your language and I suspect its more than semantics and that if we were to go into more detail I'd only feel more strongly about it but if you mean that Jesus' incarnation is an example of God's search for man then yes I would agree.

    The important thing about natural laws existing independent of our discovery of them (really good summary of what I was trying to state more simply) is that this is the perfect response to the mistaken track philosophy took from Descartes' day onwards, putting man at the centre of things with "I think therefore I am".

    To think that was all because Descartes was worried about refracted images and things not being how they seemed and being fooled by your own eyes.

  10. #20
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post


    I'd like to personally add that the beginning of the reverence of God is realizing that beyond God there is no greater being. It can be a challenge to wrap one's head and heart around, I think because God is the only one this applies to, and everything else we're used to functions in some kind of hierarchy where there is something above as well as below. With God there is nothing 'above', and all things are below.
    You're good at recycling vacant rhetoric.

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