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Thread: The irrefutable existence of God

  1. #151
    Senior Member Array Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Mar 2011


    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Since astrology has been brought up... I present this video for comment.
    It's the Da Vinci Code 3!

  2. #152
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Mar 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post

    Wait a minute! Are you saying that video wasn't satire??????

    When I watched it I thought: "Oh look, a funny parody of the anthropocentric deterministic worldview that even good old Voltaire ridiculed back in his days!" This reminds me of good ol' Doctor Pangloss and his argument that noses were created for spectacles just like legs were made for trousers. I had to google Kirk Cameron to understand this was for real.
    I just looked at the YouTube comments, and one person there said "Ray has said himself that this was a comedy routine of his...". (Another spoke sarcastically about Cameron "returning to comedy after all these years").

    When I watched their Way of the Master show on The Word Network, I got the sense that they were serious. It was a series in which in the other episodes they were being dead serious about evangelism and preaching. So I don't know why they would throw in a "comedy" like that, in the middle of it, where it could be taken seriously.

    Others (both in the comments, and in other videos) are pointing out that the banana as we know it is a humanly engineered fruit, and naturally, they were not so easy to eat. (You can think of plantains).

    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    God has given us dominion on the earth, but not in heaven unless we have Christ. When our earthly bodies die and our conscience is before the Lord, it is a fearsome thing: we no longer have dominion over our conscience, and it testifies against us.

    For everything that is hidden will eventually be brought into the open, and every secret will be brought to light. (Mark 4:22)

    It is a fearsome thing: our very conscience will betray us, that we lived for the glory of self and not for the glory of God, and the glory of God is holiness and purity.

    So, when that time comes, there will be two outcomes for each person. The person's conscience will betray them and have no further way to account... so the account will be paid with that person's life.

    God is a good father, though, and does not withhold from us what we lack. As we each have failed to live for the glory of God but instead ourselves, He does not withold from us what does bring Him glory: holiness. So if we pray according to God's will (asking for holiness) in faith (knowing He will give this) with a sincere heart (which is repentance) then we will give us the gift of His son, Jesus Christ.

    That person's conscience is cleansed, and while it once testified death against it's human owner (belonging to God and knowing that the cost of sin is death) it instead testifies life, Jesus Christ. When that person is before God, that conscience will testify Jesus, the only human who did not fall short of the glory of God, and on Jesus' behalf that person will receive the inheritance God freely gives to those who are His children. (remember, God has only 1 son, and if we are in Christ, we are the adopted sons and daughters!).

    Now, the law does play a part in this... the law teaches to the conscience (makes it aware) of sin, and by the conscience's awareness of sin, death is produced, because even if a person rebels against God, their conscience still ultimately belongs to God and knows it will be called to account, thus death is produced.
    I wasn't arguing against conscience convicting us before God, but just that it was not what was being referred to in chapter 1.
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  3. #153
    No moss growing on me Array Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    It's the Da Vinci Code 3!
    I was amused by the excel spreadsheet at the end especially with that music playing.

  4. #154
    Dreaming the life Array onemoretime's Avatar
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    Jun 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I watched several of their films, and they are so confident in their arguments. We really do not realize how foolish stuff like this looks to everyone, but we think they are the ultimate proof.
    Making it worse, is that their full theology is a mix of Calvinism and perfectionism ("Lordship salvation"; leader is John MaCarthur) that says that God "chooses" a relative few, to open their minds to the truth, and "blinds" everyone else, yet still leaves them "without excuse" (as if they "should have known"), and that even many professing evangelical Christians are not really saved, since they are not producing enough "fruits" (good works, behavior, devotion, etc)

    (BTW, Sat., before we met, we discussed some of this type of stuff for a bit).
    It's nothing more than a large revenge fantasy co-opted into a religion. The "good," that is, the disenfranchised peoples who follow this religion, will receive the glory, while the "evil," that is, the hated distant oppressor, will bear their pre-ordained punishment. It matters not that the "good" are powerless in their existence, because the "evil" are the truly powerless ones. However, the ones who direct them to focus their rage and hatred at their distant oppressors are actually the very ones who oppress them on the local level (i.e. your all-American huckster, swindler, and descendants thereof who make up the local Chamber of Commerce). So the English/French/Indians/Easterners/Elitists/Liberals/Academics/City Folk/Immigrants/Papists/Muslims will receive their glorious hellfire and torture, but to prove yourself different from them, you've got to do what the local bosses expect of you.

    It's the same ideology that will send its sons to die for their social betters to keep owning other human beings. The same that will tolerate the brutal oppression of fellow Christians of the same supposed sect, simply to maintain the social order. The same that will oppose any good sense, if it comes from the wrong person.

  5. #155
    A window to the soul


    ...and that's what trying to do any good on our own looks like. A very skewed version of 'good'.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Array Lateralus's Avatar
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    May 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by Zang View Post
    Have you ever seen something moving in the night sky, did you ever wonder, where did the kinetic energy come from? Imagining an infinite chain of collisions still begs the question, from where did this seemingly inexplicable eternal force come from? Since even science has the hunch that the universe commenced from a single point, it seems irrefutable to me that we can conclude that there is a cause of the universe that transcends the grasp of science. Philosophy points to a supernatural cause; just as there was at one point a single and solitary particle, or primordial state, so too therein lies an unseen force that is needed to explain its manifestation. Science can only ever see the most basic state, but philosophy imbued with a realization of cause and effect allows us to see deeper. It calls for a God.

    For how can a universe contain its own cause... to avoid the above conclusions one must abandon causation itself, what a silly thing to deject, better to cut off your own tongue than live in such a world where one is not permitted to form answers. God obviously does not need a maker, he is the answer to the chain, we know this universe cannot be infinite and eternal, but when we evoke God to solve the start of our chain, the point of invoking him implies that he has those qualities (Im sorry God is a guy).

    Any questions?
    This is just another God of the Gaps argument, phrased differently. You don't understand how something works, so God must have done it. The correct answer is that we don't know and may not ever know, with any degree of certainty, what the first cause of our universe was. Perhaps all of that evidence no longer exists (or perhaps it never existed). In roughly 150 billion years, there will no longer be evidence of a Big Bang. Any sentient species trying to learn about the universe, at that time, will get the wrong answer because the evidence no longer exists. They'll likely have a completely different scientific explanation for the existence of the universe (and a valid explanation given the evidence available to them), even though they will live in the same universe we do. Think about the significance of that.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #157
    Banned Array
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    God is the Ultimate Force, the "Will" of Creation that moves all things into causation.

  8. #158
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Array Mole's Avatar
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    Just as random access memory (RAM) enables us to blow the whistle on authoritarian institutions based on secrecy and control, it interesting that we are blowing the whistle on the dictator of the universe.

    But the misogynist, child raping, authoritarian institutes are fighting back.

    To fight the first Reformation of 1517 the Pope formed his personal shock troops called The Jesuits. And in 2013 to fight the reformers of today, the Church has chosen a Jesuit to be Pope.
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