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  1. #141
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I think it's interesting how people trip up on the possibility of things existing that don't make sense to the human mind or don't conform to logic. There is no guarantee that the universe is comprehensible, and who would make that guarantee? God? You created a logical construction of how things work and neatly labeled them in your brain, but this doesn't mean the world has to conform. In fact, because of how our brains work if there were things that didn't make sense, we'd most likely not take note, or maybe even suppess it.

    I don't have an agenda to push, and it's obvious that things follow for the most part in an orderly fashion. But I'm not 100% convinced we live in a clockwork universe.

  2. #142
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    What is this crap? Why do you even need further proof of my existence?
    Odd people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zang View Post
    Have you ever seen something moving in the night sky, did you ever wonder, where did the kinetic energy come from? Imagining an infinite chain of collisions still begs the question, from where did this seemingly inexplicable eternal force come from? Since even science has the hunch that the universe commenced from a single point, it seems irrefutable to me that we can conclude that there is a cause of the universe that transcends the grasp of science. Philosophy points to a supernatural cause; just as there was at one point a single and solitary particle, or primordial state, so too therein lies an unseen force that is needed to explain its manifestation. Science can only ever see the most basic state, but philosophy imbued with a realization of cause and effect allows us to see deeper. It calls for a God.

    For how can a universe contain its own cause... to avoid the above conclusions one must abandon causation itself, what a silly thing to deject, better to cut off your own tongue than live in such a world where one is not permitted to form answers. God obviously does not need a maker, he is the answer to the chain, we know this universe cannot be infinite and eternal, but when we evoke God to solve the start of our chain, the point of invoking him implies that he has those qualities (Im sorry God is a guy).

    Any questions?

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  3. #143
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    Your opening statement makes God seem like a thing, which is something I never really took into consideration. Almost like God existed for an instant and was no longer necessary.

  4. #144
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse," (Romans 1:20).

    "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands," (Psalm 19:1).
    I have a problem with the way we take the first verse to mean that things are so clear and obvious. On one hand, when people claim they are looking for God, but don't see enough evidence, we tell them it is by "faith, not sight". But the way we take this verse, knowledge of God would be by sight!
    We conflate this with chapter 2, which talks about Gentiles and conscience. We then seem to think that conscience is the vehicle through which God has "shown" everyone (1:19).

    But the whole theme of Romans is a contrast between gentiles and Israel. Chpater 1 is talking about Israel, whom God had "shown" Himself through the Law and the Temple system. (These are often what "creation" and "the world")age) even refer to!) They were the ones who "once knew" Him, but became "darkened" (1:21) when they rejected further revelation from Him.
    The gentiles had never known Him, nor the Law; hence they only had conscience. But conscience by itself does not tell one exactly who the Creator is. Neither does even all the "design" in nature. It's at best an evidence of some sort of intelligence. The "glory" of the Heavens is appreciated in light of a prior faith.

    The whole point of the book of Romans is that what both groups need is Grace. The Israelites trusted in the Law, but the Law only condemns and leaves "without excuse".

    My point in this is that faith is very hard today, and Grace is what I hope for.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post


    And to think, the human hand isn't the only thing that can perfectly wrap around it. Truly a testament to His divine existence.
    I watched several of their films, and they are so confident in their arguments. We really do not realize how foolish stuff like this looks to everyone, but we think they are the ultimate proof.
    Making it worse, is that their full theology is a mix of Calvinism and perfectionism ("Lordship salvation"; leader is John MacArthur) that says that God "chooses" a relative few, to open their minds to the truth, and "blinds" everyone else, yet still leaves them "without excuse" (as if they "should have known"), and that even many professing evangelical Christians are not really saved, since they are not producing enough "fruits" (good works, behavior, devotion, etc)

    (BTW, Sat., before we met, we discussed some of this type of stuff for a bit).
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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Your post does not answer the question why a supernatural being can be without cause and a supernatural big bang cannot.
    Yeah, I don't think we get past this conundrum of Western thought whether we're talking some sentient being without origin or some cosmic event without origin.

    I'm wondering if it's just a problem of Western logic, which supposes that everything has to have a cause and effect in the first place, which thus supposes a chain without ending or beginning if anything at all exists. The paradox is inherent to the framework.

    So what if this framework is invalid and we change it?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post

    I watched several of their films, and they are so confident in their arguments
    . We really do not realize how foolish stuff like this looks to everyone, but we think they are the ultimate proof.
    Making it worse, is that their full theology is a mix of Calvinism and perfectionism ("Lordship salvation"; leader is John MaCarthur) that says that God "chooses" a relative few, to open their minds to the truth, and "blinds" everyone else, yet still leaves them "without excuse" (as if they "should have known"), and that even many professing evangelical Christians are not really saved, since they are not producing enough "fruits" (good works, behavior, devotion, etc)

    (BTW, Sat., before we met, we discussed some of this type of stuff for a bit).
    WHAT?

    Wait a minute! Are you saying that video wasn't satire??????

    When I watched it I thought: "Oh look, a funny parody of the anthropocentric deterministic worldview that even good old Voltaire ridiculed back in his days!" This reminds me of good ol' Doctor Pangloss and his argument that noses were created for spectacles just like legs were made for trousers. I had to google Kirk Cameron to understand this was for real.
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  7. #147
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    @Eric B: Thanks for your insight. I see your point.

  8. #148
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    We then seem to think that conscience is the vehicle through which God has "shown" everyone (1:19).

    But the whole theme of Romans is a contrast between gentiles and Israel. Chpater 1 is talking about Israel, whom God had "shown" Himself through the Law and the Temple system. (These are often what "creation" and "the world")age) even refer to!) They were the ones who "once knew" Him, but became "darkened" (1:21) when they rejected further revelation from Him.
    The gentiles had never known Him, nor the Law; hence they only had conscience. But conscience by itself does not tell one exactly who the Creator is. Neither does even all the "design" in nature. It's at best an evidence of some sort of intelligence. The "glory" of the Heavens is appreciated in light of a prior faith.

    The whole point of the book of Romans is that what both groups need is Grace. The Israelites trusted in the Law, but the Law only condemns and leaves "without excuse".

    My point in this is that faith is very hard today, and Grace is what I hope for.
    God has given us dominion on the earth, but not in heaven unless we have Christ. When our earthly bodies die and our conscience is before the Lord, it is a fearsome thing: we no longer have dominion over our conscience, and it testifies against us.

    For everything that is hidden will eventually be brought into the open, and every secret will be brought to light. (Mark 4:22)

    It is a fearsome thing: our very conscience will betray us, that we lived for the glory of self and not for the glory of God, and the glory of God is holiness and purity.

    So, when that time comes, there will be two outcomes for each person. The person's conscience will betray them and have no further way to account... so the account will be paid with that person's life.

    God is a good father, though, and does not withhold from us what we lack. As we each have failed to live for the glory of God but instead ourselves, He does not withold from us what does bring Him glory: holiness. So if we pray according to God's will (asking for holiness) in faith (knowing He will give this) with a sincere heart (which is repentance) then we will give us the gift of His son, Jesus Christ.

    That person's conscience is cleansed, and while it once testified death against it's human owner (belonging to God and knowing that the cost of sin is death) it instead testifies life, Jesus Christ. When that person is before God, that conscience will testify Jesus, the only human who did not fall short of the glory of God, and on Jesus' behalf that person will receive the inheritance God freely gives to those who are His children. (remember, God has only 1 son, and if we are in Christ, we are the adopted sons and daughters!).

    Now, the law does play a part in this... the law teaches to the conscience (makes it aware) of sin, and by the conscience's awareness of sin, death is produced, because even if a person rebels against God, their conscience still ultimately belongs to God and knows it will be called to account, thus death is produced.

  9. #149
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    The Confidence Trick

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I watched several of their films, and they are so confident in their arguments.
    Yes, we are so attracted to confidence, particularly women. And so the confidence trick is born and it works.

    Astrology is a confidence trick, homeopathy is a confidence trick and MBTI is a confidence trick.

    At the back of every women's magazine confidence performs its trick, while here MBTI is astrology for the college educated.

  10. #150
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Since astrology has been brought up... I present this video for comment.

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljRKhZ81aqY"].[/YOUTUBE]

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