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  1. #131
    A window to the soul
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    "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse," (Romans 1:20).

    "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands," (Psalm 19:1).

    "He made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding," (Jeremiah 51:15).

  2. #132
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thisica View Post
    To be frank, Nature isn't even run by "cause and effect". Those are labels we use in an attempt to understand how the world works. Nature is beyond human language.
    You're dealing with a paradox there. In one hand, you're saying what nature isn't, yet with the other, you say it's beyond language.

    I'm more than open to the idea of nature being beyond language, as well as the noumenal.

  3. #133
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse," (Romans 1:20).
    Hehe.

  4. #134
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    And to think, the human hand isn't the only thing that can perfectly wrap around it. Truly a testament to His divine existence.



  5. #135
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Answer: both of them did. There was first a sort of egg with a sort of chicken inside it, and the two of them were so mixed up in each other that there was scarcely any distinction between them. And just before that moment, the chicken and the egg were completely one. And before that moment, the chicken-and-egg were simply not.

    Cause is the egg; effect is the chicken. Before cause and effect--no, not before cause and effect, for that would be a tautology of the sort that spawned the ontological argument. One doesn't get beyond before by repeating the word "before." That only keeps one exactly where one is (which is something that no one is fooled about: people who repeat the ontological argument are lying to themselves as well as others). Naming one arbitrarily-chosen before "God" and feeling satisfied with that has all the explanatory power of going to the pet shop, picking out a puppy, and naming him Fred. It reveals your preferences, and that's about it.

    Your "intellect," as they call it, is what posits cause and effect. Your intellect, therefore, is at least one possible answer to your question. "God" is another possible answer to your question, but if that's the answer you choose to provide, you would do well to keep in mind that an answer is an egg waiting to hatch. Faith would be a bit more stable; naivety would be the most stable thing of all.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  6. #136
    Senior Member Thisica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    You're dealing with a paradox there. In one hand, you're saying what nature isn't, yet with the other, you say it's beyond language.

    I'm more than open to the idea of nature being beyond language, as well as the noumenal.
    I know What I should have said is that people think that nature is "run by cause and effect".
    “To explain all nature is too difficult a task for any one man or even for any one age. 'Tis much better to do a little with certainty, & leave the rest for others that come after you, than to explain all things by conjecture without making sure of any thing.”—Statement from unpublished notes for the Preface to the Opticks (1704) by Newton.

    What do you think about me? And for the darker side, here.

  7. #137
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zang View Post
    God is not part of reality,
    So he is imaginary? I can live with that!
    or he would need a cause, including him in reality and giving him but one exemption is not an elegant portrait of the scenario.
    No, it isn't. That's why I discard the god.
    I don't understand why you think matter would be an adequate first cause, matter isn't supernatural therefore it is not immune to the question, what 'caused the matter'?
    Again, why would everything in existence be natural except for one thing?
    God is invoked because he is a very special sort of entity, necessarily a being of infinite real qualities that we're able to postulate. I do not accept that God is infinitely complex, I believe he could be quite 'logically simple'...
    To me, calling something a "god" means you suppose he is alive, conscious, more powerful than a human... that's not a "simple" being. You're calling him special, infinite, not to be judged by our poor human standards.

    I confess I'm not able to find a cause for the first bunch of energy. Maybe there is one. Maybe there are causes stretching infinitely into the past, just as there are effects stretching infinitely into the future. I don't know. But the difference is this. I guess this will sound hard or condescending, that's not my purpose, but I'll phrase it like that for the sake of clarity.

    Theist: "The first cause is God, and you mustn't ask questions about God or else God would be angry. (Or: because God is better than you are, pathetic human)"
    Atheist:" The first cause is a bunch of unconscious, unstructured energy, and you are allowed to ask questions about that, only I don't know the answer."
    Absolute virtue; love(virtues and the intent to nourish) incarnate. I think you catch the point...
    Yes, I can imagine a god like that. What does that prove? That I've got a good imagination?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Not going to involve myself in this one other than to say isn't looking for irrefutable proof of God about as difficult as asking for irrefutable proof of a lack thereof?
    True, and I'm going for the cheapest route. You can't prove either. At least, as an atheist, I don't have to spend time at a church/mosque/..., refrain from sex, or do all sorts of things humans think the god wants us to do.
    If the god just wants us to be nice to each other, I'm good. I do the best I can, not for the sake of the god, but for the sake of my fellow human beings.
    If the god wants us to build him a temple, I'd like to know what sort of temple he wants. Countless people are making war just because they don't agree on the sort of temple (and rituals, ...). I don't want to get into that.
    If the god wants us to kill other people (who says the god has to be a nice one? we'd prefer a nice god, but a real god doesn't have to follow our preferences), I'll refuse. I will stand up against god if he doesn't meet my ethical standards.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  8. #138
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    We create our God then our God creates us.

    So God is both imaginary and real.

    Our imaginary God has real effects.

  9. #139
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    And God is our greatest work of art, for God enables us to see with a God's Eye View. And as we move further into the electronic world, God will enable us to listen with the Ear of God.

    And smell with the nose of God.
    Last edited by Mole; 06-12-2011 at 11:47 PM.

  10. #140
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    A "cause" for the universe doesn't solve anything, because then the universe is just defined as the cause+whatever you previously thought.

    Infinite regress.

    God doesn't solve this problem, because then what caused God causing the universe?

    Edit: in other words, nothing can be "outside" the universe, even God, because the universe is defined as everything.

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