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  1. #121
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    Not going to involve myself in this one other than to say isn't looking for irrefutable proof of God about as difficult as asking for irrefutable proof of a lack thereof?

  2. #122
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Arguing against the first cause being referred to as "god" is more semantics than anything else.
    Semantics is a lot. A god is a certain kind of thing (there are also many gods to choose from), whereas a first cause is nothing but a first cause. You assume the first cause is god because your reasoning does not arrive at god, it starts with god.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Semantics is a lot. A god is a certain kind of thing (there are also many gods to choose from), whereas a first cause is nothing but a first cause. You assume the first cause is god because your reasoning does not arrive at god, it starts with god.
    A first cause for all intents and purposes is god, since god is a necessary being and the underpinning of all reality. The properties of god(Yaweh, Zeus, Mr X) is another, secondary, discussion. Aquinas would contend that to refer to the first cause as anything but god would be to digress from the commonly accepted(at least in his day) term for the first cause, but would admit no fundamental dispute existed on the matter - not at this point in the discussion at least. So if you want to push the issue, fine, but in the end it's still a rather trival one.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    A first cause for all intents and purposes is god, since god is a necessary being and the underpinning of all reality. The properties of god(Yaweh, Zeus, Mr X) is another, secondary, discussion. Aquinas would contend that to refer to the first cause as anything but god would be to digress from the commonly accepted(at least in his day) term for the first cause, but would admit no fundamental dispute existed on the matter - not at this point in the discussion at least.
    Okay. I rest my case.

  5. #125
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think how people answer the question of the existence of God or whether they will be able to relates closely to the question of if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one there to hear it does it make any noise.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Just as language depends on agreed phonemic premises of meaning to ensure mutual understanding, so too does philosophic conversation depend on mutually agreed premises to prevent parties from discussing entirely different topics while couched in seemingly comprehensible words.
    Is this always the case?
    What if I like discussing entirely different topics while couched in seemingly comprehensible words?


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It is disrespectful because at that point, one is ascribing beliefs or conclusions to a person that the person does not have. One assumes to know more about the other's beliefs than the other person does, which is both extremely arrogant and disrespectful of that person's ability to come to reasonable conclusions.
    You are assuming I think arrogance and disrespect should be avoided. What if I prefer them?

    I find it interesting that you think incorrect judgements should be avoided because they are disrespectful.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #127
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Is this always the case?
    What if I like discussing entirely different topics while couched in seemingly comprehensible words?
    That's your prerogative, but you're not discussing in good faith at that point. So, I would be inclined to dismiss your credibility as a honest proponent of your viewpoint.

    You are assuming I think arrogance and disrespect should be avoided. What if I prefer them?
    In that case, it would be my prerogative to think of you as a prick, and dismiss your credibility as an advocate, even if I agree with you.

    I find it interesting that you think incorrect judgements should be avoided because they are disrespectful.
    Of course. It is my belief that one should assume a place of respect for everyone until a person gives you a reason to do otherwise. I accept that this is my belief, and I don't posit any sort of logical rationale for it (though I could if someone asked).

  8. #128
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Basically as a human you either imagine that you are the cause of all other things or you accept that things happen because of external others, from there its easy to accept if there are others that God is one of the others.

  9. #129
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    Print taught us to think in linear, sequential ways. And so print taught us to think in terms of cause and effect. And just as a book has a begining, the universe has a First Cause. And hey, just as a watch has a watch maker, the universe has a universe maker, called the First Cause.

    But print is being subsumed in the electronic world, where everything happens all at once, time and space have been abolished, and things emerge spontaneously.

    So the God of print has been relegated, while the God of the electronic world is bursting through our computer screens, right now.

    And this is where we worship. Yes, we worship everyday at our computer screens. Our piety seems to know no bounds. And as piety is the last taboo, no one here dare break it. You know, and I know, you can't look away from the Eye of God whether it is Mac or PC. The only caveat I am obliged to give you is that Mac is used in heaven and PC is used in the other place.

  10. #130
    Senior Member Thisica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    That's true, and is the reason for the argument. Nature is assumed to be ruled by cause and effect, whereas supernature isn't. Ie. this is the uncaused cause argument. It would be a leap in reason to conclude the uncaused cause is a personal deity, though.
    To be frank, Nature isn't even run by "cause and effect". Those are labels we use in an attempt to understand how the world works. Nature is beyond human language.
    “To explain all nature is too difficult a task for any one man or even for any one age. 'Tis much better to do a little with certainty, & leave the rest for others that come after you, than to explain all things by conjecture without making sure of any thing.”—Statement from unpublished notes for the Preface to the Opticks (1704) by Newton.

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