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  1. #71
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Why do you say this?

    I think good lovers are considerate (they want you to get off), they're emotionally passionate about being with you (sociopaths aren't capable of that, are they?), and they aren't prudish about trying different things.

    What would make a sociopath better? Do you like the danger? Are you turned on by selfishness or roughness?
    LoL - of course it is just my personal opinion, but...... I've definitely been with several. The ones I have known have no hang-ups, and no problems getting or sustaining erections anytime. They have no nagging doubts about pleasing you, or anything in the way of having all-out intense sex. (I hope I can say this here haha.......). And of course, I never had any problems getting off. They will basically do anything in bed, no probs, and love it. They are extremely sex-driven, beyond imaginable. Of course it has to do with control, but who cares when it's that good lmfao Sure, it does have to do with what you are looking for in bed and whether your interests coincide with theirs, but in general, they are set-up to be able to please. No, the sex wasn't necessarily rough....yes, it was selfish, but the overall drive was so intense that it wasn't hard to love it. Mine were very vocal in bed, and yes, if they are getting something from you, they will do things to keep that going. They aren't picky when it comes to sex. Their time is basically meaningless, so if they think it's pleasing and they know it will "work it's magic" with you, they will dive right in. It was much more passionate sex than I've ever had with a normal guy, honestly. Normal guys have a lot to prove and be, expectations and social constraints that they just don't have. Some of the things they do in the act of charming you and creating false intimacy can be beyond anything a normal guy would be willing to do for you. They have no superego or ego stopping them, and it appears that they are pulling out all the stops..... in an amazing sort of way. Since they have no self, they have nothing to be true to, and they do it all to win you. (Then they turn it all around lol, so it's not really worth it, but yea, I have many memories of years of great sex). They then proceed to rip your heart out over-and-over while alternating between pulling you in and pushing you away, but that's beside the point I guess lol.

    *Just my experiences*

    "It is a revenge the devil sometimes takes on the virtuous, that he entraps them by the force of the very passion they have suppressed and think themselves superior to."
    George Santayana
    Last edited by ICUP; 06-07-2011 at 04:16 PM.
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  2. #72
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Generally if their interests and yours incidentally coincide then that's a benefit. I can't imagine all sociopaths just happen to be sexually impressive, though I'd still say that falls into two interests happening to align.

    They're also usually charismatic and charming if they've no motivation or there's no benefit to cross you.

    I don't think incidental goodness or kindness can really count towards being a "good" person, but I guess that depends if you think strictly motivation or action, with intentional and/or well-meaning or unintentional and/or without any intent are equivalent.

    That's a tough question for me. I'm generally utilitarian, which implies action is best, but in evaluation of a person (which includes likely actions in the future), motivation is key.


    EDIT: Also, where is the 5% figure coming from? I've always seen 1-2% as the consensus. A psychologist named Hare originally speculated this, and Jon Ronson, who just wrote a book called "The Psychopath Test" repeated that 1-2% statistic on a recent episode of The Daily Show (though he claimed it was significantly higher, close to 25%, in prisons, and around 10% in CEOs and high-ranking business officials).
    What I'm saying is that in any relationship, be it sociopath or not, there are benefits which I see as "good", and I can even say there were some good things about my relationships with them. That doesn't mean I think they are good people, overall. I think they are somewhere on the continuum, but many are not nearly as bad as many want to believe, and many don't even indulge as much as a "bad" normal person. It depends on their genes, their families and environments, and how much motivation they have. They are inherently "evil", but just as there are many mostly "good" people who don't do much "good" because they are lazy and unmotivated, you will find the same in the sociopath community. At the end of the day, a guy sitting around, watching tv, and smoking pot isn't currently doing anything "bad", and that's what I mean.......they are not ALL bad. I judge people by their actions, not what is going on in their minds. After all, I could be thinking about killing my boss, but as long as I don't go through with it, it was harmless. They can be good workers who are very thorough in their work; they are good at repetitive tasks. They show up on time, and they do their jobs to-the-letter, everytime. They can and do follow sets of rules and instructions to-the-letter, when they want to. They can do it in exchange for money. So even the motivation there, would not be a "bad" one, only neutral. Just an example.....so therefore, I can't say they are ALL bad, which is what I originally wrote. I think they are anywhere from neutral-to-bad at any point in time, but some of the things they do can be viewed as "good", even though it is a part of an evil web they are creating (such as sending flowers, giving you massages, or wearing the clothes you like to see them in) or even "good" in a more neutral way, such as showing up to work on time everyday. It can be a very close and sensual affair when they are pretending to bond with you. There is nothing in the way of "faking" all-out intimacy. They can generally do above-and-beyond what a normal person can in that situation, and they can morph and fit your definition of a good sexual partner easily and completely. That's what is dangerous about them, is that they have no self, and nothing to be true to. They can easily do what you want, and do it your way. So generally, they can easily be what you are looking for in a sexual partner. The ups-and-downs are tremendous, but if you like intensity, it's a wild ride.

    No true sociopath is going to be a legitimate CEO. I guess it COULD happen but it would be extremely, extremely rare. Some people like to think CEO's are "evil" and therefore, a good percentage are sociopaths. Maybe of a used car lot lol..... sociopaths have too many difficulties to make it that far in life. Some of them can be successful as town-lawyers, or teachers, or even physicians, but that's as far as it goes. They can't even make contractions within a sentence unless it is said within a copied phrase. Everything they say must be copied from someone or something else. They can't create their own thoughts. They must go by what they have seen/heard, instructions, and rules. They learn how to act by watching us. A person can fit the diagnosis of a sociopath environmentally but not biologically be, a true sociopath, and that's the only way I could see 10% of REAL CEO's being sociopaths.

    I've mostly seen it listed as 5%, but I would think the most credible reference would be the DSM-IV, at this point. "The prevalence of this disorder is 3% in males and 1% from females, as stated from the DSM IV-TR."

    No, I don't think ALL sociopaths are good in bed, but it seems to be a trend. They are generally set-up to be, genetically, and psychologically. Mine wasn't charismatic or charming unless there was a benefit to be had. He was just neutral and quiet. There are many varieties of sociopaths, as there are many varieties of people. The ones I knew (and I have known many, groups of them), will never spend any substantial amount of time in jail. Many of them are musicians in bar-bands and just id-boys, who like to have a hot girlfriend to use and control, and play mindgames with. They're not that violent; only on occasion, and they do little damage then, and the control is not that obvious (they are good at finding ways to get done what they want without being obviously controlling. They can offer many freedoms within a controlling environment). They aren't the stereotypical abusive, controlling types. They just want to smoke their pot and drink, and have sex..... Good? No way, but they aren't Charles Manson either. I was with two for 7 years each, of course at the time, I was none the wiser. I was one messed-up kid lol.... but I made it out with mostly psychological damage, that was apparently already there before I dated them. They just made it worse.

    I am in no way advocating dating a sociopath, lol.... I definitely do not see it as a good idea, and much worse could've happened to me than what did. I consider myself lucky that I did not end up in worse conditions. There is slow growth there, and it takes many years to recover from such abuse.
    Last edited by ICUP; 06-07-2011 at 03:36 PM.
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  3. #73
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    I think most people are inherently good. It is when you bunch people together that they become evil.
    This is why I do not generally put much trust in the friendship of a city-person.
    That is just a general guideline, but they tend to be more degenerate, immoral, liberal, selfish and untrustworthy.
    It's just a matter of environment shaping people, however, and some people always evade being warped by it through sheer strength of character.
    They tend to be all the better.
    I'm inclined to agree, although I think that evil deeds or an evil nature especially is a result to maladjustment, people will be good and develop to be good provided that they're not blocked somehow from being that way, for instance being raised in a culture or context in which being happy, kind or relating to others is considered weak.

    How does it happen that there's so much evil if people are destined to be good? Well trauma, brain injury, all that can cause a derailment, sometimes those derailments combine into a culture, that toxicity can cause a war, it becomes just as self-perpetuating as good could be.

  4. #74
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm inclined to agree, although I think that evil deeds or an evil nature especially is a result to maladjustment, people will be good and develop to be good provided that they're not blocked somehow from being that way, for instance being raised in a culture or context in which being happy, kind or relating to others is considered weak.
    Can't we say the same in reverse? That people will be mostly "bad" unless they are blocked somehow from being that way, for instance being raised in a culture or context in which being unhappy, unkind or being abusive to others is considered weak? (or somewhere along those lines.....)

    Just saying.... I am thinking you could use the exact same argument to prove that people are mostly bad.

    I think the (simple) truth might be closer to: people will be what their environment produces, combined with genes. People then label whether they come out as "good" or "bad", usually depending on a definition influenced by social and environment, with regards to religion and individuality.
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  5. #75
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    I think most people want to be good to some extent, but the thing is, what is good and what is evil is not written in giant letters in the sky - most of us have a good, if fuzzy, hunch, but it's easy to feel lost and simply follow a beaten trail, or hold onto a conviction and charge ahead wit our eyes closed... That's a bit extreme, I know, but I think I made my point.

  6. #76
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    I personally think (most) people are "good." Not inherently so, though. People are malleable.
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  7. #77
    Senior Member Agent Jelly's Avatar
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    I think the majority of people suck. But I also think everyone has a choice to be good or bad.

  8. #78
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    I think people, like nature and everything in the universe, are technically neutral. They are born in amorality and then develop their cognitive functions and will by testing immorality and morality more or less at the same time to determine their personal values based on what they have judged (at first through sensations or emotions I guess) to be good or bad for them, depending on the consequences and how their own personality affirm itself.

    I do not know where to place society and culture in this debate because I tend to create an hypothetical individual born out of any cultural context trying to impose their will and determine what values they can determine.

    Incidentally, I also think that culture may help people turning good since it imposes conventions more based on justice than inner feelings and thus regulate behaviours (but I am also pretty sure it can lead people to oppose to any rule and because relatively evil to impose their will.)
    There's something about human being and nature in general that is imbalanced and seems to lead people and things to fight, not only for survival, but also for leadership (as a more general concept, meaning that you have to win something in the end like reproduction, to impose your will onto something which may be nature, other people or yourself), perhaps sometimes it is closed to the will to be closer to the ideal concept of deity (not through prayers or religion, to become more of a deity and less of a human being limited in its abilities and never truly seeing its limits, getting both a feeling of impotency and potency).

    Hum, I can't keep on this idea because I've been distracted by chores so I hope it's clear enough and does not seem to ridiculous.

    Anyway, I think you can observe that with little children, once they become more than needy things, the first sign that they are using their brain and realising their potential is that they try to manipulate and defy what is authority and principle to them (parents) to impose their will and own rules, and while laxism does not always end up creating a monster (and authoritarian parents will not always create a perfect citizen), the need for rules and conventions to be established and the use of punishment and reward ("good" vs "bad") show how morality does not come naturally to people.
    Of course, the fact that no human beings are born outside a culture and that we can't see what would be some human prototype developping on their own makes it hard to guess whether they'd be good or not but my guess would be that they'll probably be in some kind of animalistic and amoral state unless there is confrontation with another sentient creature and interaction.
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  9. #79
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    I think people are naturally good, but weak and easily corruptable
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  10. #80
    Senior Member InTheFlesh's Avatar
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    "Good" and "Bad" are impossible to separate, the "Bad" does not evaporate even if something is being deemed "Good" and visa versa.

    As Montaigne said:
    If the evil in men were eliminated, then the fundamental condition of life would be destroyed.
    Baudrillard:
    Good and evil are irresolvably bound up with one another, this is fatal in the original sense: an integral part of our fate, our destiny.

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