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  1. #31
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    How do I find out? Is there a "feminist 8-ball" I can buy on Amazon? /only partially joking
    Hey, you stay aware, you keep your mind open, you talk to people, and you'll learn. You're opinions will develop, you'll get your own ideas, etc.

    Hell, just look at all the discussion/argument between feminists.

    I'm still learning. [off topic]Like, the stripping/prostitution thing and whether or not it's "slut-shaming"? I haven't a clue.[/off topic]

  2. #32
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    This is about a flowchart about film but is very helpful in outlining just how hard it is to find a complex female character.

    EDIT: sorry you'll have to follow the link and zoom in as I can't post it here full size.

    http://www.overthinkingit.com/wp-con...-Flowchart.png
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #33
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    Man, that chart gets around.

    I want to love the chart, but it is not cool to deny Marge Simpson, Sailor Moon, & Dorothy Zbornak (among many others) strong female character-hood. At some point it seems more designed to deny female characters than to celebrate them.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I was browsing Fandom Secrets a week or so ago... A lot of the secrets - and discussions - bring to the table Social Justice-related topics such as privilege and heteronormativity. I was then intrigued by this submission (discussion here, just scroll down), which is about the anime Puella Magi Madoka Magica. Despite not having seen it, therefore being unable to judge its "feminism quotient", so to speak, I began wondering about the idea of a work of fiction being "feminist".

    Another secret (discussion here) brings up the question of what social issues are inadvertently present in works of fiction, which is a subject studied by several literary schools. It's not my cup of tea, but it got me thinking: how does one anlyze that? How does a white, privileged male know if his characterization of female characters, for example, does not come across as sexist, racist, ableist, gender binary, etc?

    Basically, what makes a work of fiction feminist, sexist, "empowering", etc.? Not being very acquainted with feminism, I wanted to understand those topics better.

    (Sorry if this is kinda messy.)
    Interesting topic, I'll be honest with you that I'm not sure myself and I do know that there is a kind of morphology goes on, or at least some of the more ardent agitators would suggest, so expunging the obvious examples of whatever is oppressive wont get rid of the unconscious prejudice or oppressive mindsets. Some writers I know about have suggested that you should just be unashamedly true to your self in writing and let the critics have a field day with it.

    This topic has come up frequently in relation to Dennis Wheatley, one of my favourite authors, now the guy is an old British imperialist, sexist, racist (explicitly so), disabilist (big style), heteronormative (lesbians particularly are evil in his books), anti-communist, very possibly proto-fascist but I think he writes great books, adventure novels with occult themes before Kelley Armstrong, Laurel K Hamilton etc. revived the idea with "gothic romance". Although would you believe that alongside this content he was pretty democratic about his writing, he used to include little questionaire style requests for feedback asking readers did they like this or that sort of adventure, should there be more or less of this character or that one, what about if this one had a non-occult adventure or what if this one had one, that kind of thing. He even gave interviews suggesting that if a writer didnt have a public they would go out of business and that was fine by him.

    Orwell wrote about writing and books quite a bit, not just in his essay "why I write" and he positively suggested that right wing writers were better writers than left wing ones, I wish he'd read Ayn Rand because her books typify a lot of the things he criticised in the left wing writers, that there were characters which were gramaphone intellectuals and speeches or committee scenes were only pretext.

    He said that right wing writers had a lot of simple convictions, which they repeated and it may have been repetitive to read but the left had complex theories which were dull or which he suspected not anyone, including the left intellectuals themselves, full understood or were interested in. That's something which I've heard from others who were able to honestly evaluate left and right wing books, both fact and fiction, for readability and enjoyability.

    While some content, Wheatley is one example but I've read some of Henry Miller's books (which Orwell loved), shocks and disgusts me its still honest and written from the heart and I that we never lived in a culture what has so much to learn from The Emperor's New Clothes before, people spend a lot of their time alienated from their basic feelings if you ask me and often when they decide, for what ever reason, to give vent to them they feel liberated, this can be a really bad thing if they've kept something in their mental basement until its become a really ugly, monsterous thing.

    I know that I've seen horrible situations in which one person has beat up another or really wielded their power in the most coercive fashion, simply and objectively that's what's happened, although speaking to them they've imagined that all kinds of other things were at stake, when the objective situation is much more mundane.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Boy, that chart rules out a lot of characters... I do wonder - do I, by buying media that portrays those archetypes, support the patriarchy?

    Thanks for those examples, Colors! I can't access Hulu in my country, tho - Bummer! In any case, I've only heard about the two series you mentioned, but that's mostly because I don't watch a lot of TV nowadays...

  6. #36
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that there are near enough interesting females in the media today, but that chart is ridiculous. Just because a character represents an archetype doesn't mean that it's not a realized character. And story telling by necessity invokes archetypes. Seriously, Ripley being a 'final girl' means she's not a strong female character?

  7. #37
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    Yeah. I'd argue most great characters "represent an idea", but that doesn't mean they can't be multifaceted or round characters.

  8. #38
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I agree with Colors - the hallmark of a feminist work is nothing more than equality. Feminism is NOT about women being "better" or "dominant."

    It just means they are whole people, and in works of fiction whole characters, rather than simply being defined by their relationship to men (for example, in sexist works women are portrayed as nothing more than victims, sex objects, daughters, wives, girlfriends, and are often "flat" characters rather than dynamic).

    As a heterosexual male if you strive to make your female characters human beings with validated thoughts, feelings, wants, needs, and plans of their own just like you would make a male character, then you're on the right path.
    This does seem to be similar in belief to everyday feminists I know..... if a feminine character is put in any role other than equal, they call foul. This includes showing a dark, manipulative side. Some feminists don't want female characters to appear to be "evil", to manipulate, or to use or take advantage of people.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICUP View Post
    This does seem to be similar in belief to everyday feminists I know..... if a feminine character is put in any role other than equal, they call foul. This includes showing a dark, manipulative side. Some feminists don't want female characters to appear to be "evil", to manipulate, or to use or take advantage of people.
    I love it when women are girly or evil, as long as ALL women aren't portrayed that way. I'm very happy to recognize that both males and females behave this way.

    Then again, I also think Judd Apatow films are funny.

    I'm not one of the crazy feminists and I don't want to be associated with them. I don't know if those feminists are all NFJs and NTs or what, but it seems really preposterous and idealistic and "politically correct." I don't like it when feminists can't relate to women who aren't like themselves (for example, feminists who are more girly in their gender and maybe submissive in their sexual preferences, or who want to be stay-at-home-moms).

    Feminism to me is about equality and respect. That is all. Hell, that can be hard enough to get in and of itself without having all of these other creepy little demands.

  10. #40
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I love it when women are girly or evil, as long as ALL women aren't portrayed that way. I'm very happy to recognize that both males and females behave this way.
    Me too. I like some girly and evil. I like variety and don't like limiting myself. Yes, I thought of that too, at one time.... some male characters are portrayed as evil, so why can't some females be portrayed as evil? Same with gender-based issues.... I just expect fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post

    I don't know if those feminists are all NFJs and NTs or what, but it seems really preposterous and idealistic and "politically correct." I don't like it when feminists can't relate to women who aren't like themselves (for example, feminists who are more girly in their gender and maybe submissive in their sexual preferences, or who want to be stay-at-home-moms).
    One I know well took the test and she is isfj. She expects all characters to be portrayed according to her value system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post

    Feminism to me is about equality and respect. That is all. Hell, that can be hard enough to get in and of itself without having all of these other demands.
    True.
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