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  1. #11
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    I wished for responses, and I got them from awesome people; alas, all wishes must, per the laws of narrative drama, contain a twist...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Flat characters don't have full personalities. They're one dimensional and don't grow or change. Like, if all of the women in your story are nothing more than attractive props or mothers without other aspects to their personalities, those are flat one-dimensional characters. A woman is more than a role she plays for a man or society.

    There's nothing wrong with female characters liking pink or having crushes on boys. I love boys and I own things that are pink. I'm perpetually 14 years old. However, I obviously also have other characteristics to my personality, like intelligence, and many interests that have nothing to do with my relationships with men. I don't need a man to survive, et al.

    Also, it's probably good if ALL of the girls in your story aren't pink-loving boy crazy ExFPs or ESFJ mommy types. It's good to flesh out to acknowledge the women who hate pink and don't think about relationships very much.
    Again, I'm not a writer, just a curious individual. This thread may end up having good advice for novice writers, though.

    I understand the definition of of flat and round in the context of characterization, but I do believe it to be a fuzzy boundary sometimes... Sometimes, even complexity has a kind of archetypal aspect to it, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

    All in all, it's hard sometimes to say how "girly" is too "girly", especially if said character has a kind of vulnerability to them, or displays such at times...

    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    Women already have equal rights. The modern feminist movement seeks for women to not just have equal rights, but have equal outcomes to men, which is evil and degenerate.
    Do the women where you live get paid the same as men? Are they as likely to be taken seriously when asking for a raise of doing a job interview?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Perch420's Avatar
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    Men are generally more ambitious and intelligent than women, so of course they are paid more.

    I know of no objective criteria for determining how "serious" someone is taken when asking a job interview, so the second part of your post is a moot point.
    “Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” - G. K. Chesterton

  3. #13
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    You think men are generally more intellgent than women? Apparently you've never been to the Deep South.

    But seriously bro how can you even make such a claim? Where is your evidence or statistics for such assertions?

  4. #14
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Can we stay on-topic, please? We already have a thread for "gender roles" and whatnot...

    What would you say is the difference between a work that just happens to have well-written female characters and a "feminist work"?

    Also, people other than Colors and Ms. Dearest are welcome to contribute! I'm interested in exploring different perspectives.

  5. #15
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    As I see it, a work of art is feminist if it can portray women as normal humand beings compared to man; although this would depend on the content of such fiction, like a story set in the 18th or 19th century would probably not have strong and independent women in it, historicaly speaking. But a story that gives a female character who is just as capable as any guy is usually feminist, but if they're too perfect, if they're basically Wonder Woman incarnate, then that becomes the oppoisite of a feminist work for it's sexist. Like most male leads in stories will have some flaw they have to deal with or a problem they need to overcome, thus having a female lead should be the same way.

  6. #16
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Can we stay on-topic, please? We already have a thread for "gender roles" and whatnot...

    What would you say is the difference between a work that just happens to have well-written female characters and a "feminist work"?

    Also, people other than Colors and Ms. Dearest are welcome to contribute! I'm interested in exploring different perspectives.
    well-written vs feminist is usually deciphered by whether or not there is some ulterior motive in the author's creation.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    As I see it, a work of art is feminist if it can portray women as normal humand beings compared to man; although this would depend on the content of such fiction, like a story set in the 18th or 19th century would probably not have strong and independent women in it, historicaly speaking. But a story that gives a female character who is just as capable as any guy is usually feminist, but if they're too perfect, if they're basically Wonder Woman incarnate, then that becomes the oppoisite of a feminist work for it's sexist. Like most male leads in stories will have some flaw they have to deal with or a problem they need to overcome, thus having a female lead should be the same way.
    Is it possible to be sexist against men, though? I've heard people on LJ say that "misandry" doesn't exist because a woman who hates men has much more precedent and much less power than a man who hates women...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    well-written vs feminist is usually deciphered by whether or not there is some ulterior motive in the author's creation.
    That would be the most common-sense explanation... But what about the Death of the Author concept, though? Is the literary canon free for interpretation in spite of the author's "official" statements?

  8. #18
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Is it possible to be sexist against men, though? I've heard people on LJ say that "misandry" doesn't exist because a woman who hates men has much more precedent and much less power than a man who hates women...


    That would be the most common-sense explanation... But what about the Death of the Author concept, though? Is the literary canon free for interpretation in spite of the author's "official" statements?
    of course you can be sexist against men. tons of women in the United States are (although probably not in Brazil)
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  9. #19
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    Men are generally more ambitious and intelligent than women, so of course they are paid more.

    I know of no objective criteria for determining how "serious" someone is taken when asking a job interview, so the second part of your post is a moot point.
    actually, that's not quite true. women and men are of about equal intelligence HOWEVER, there are more men on the extremes of the spectrum (very stupid or very intelligent) while most women are in the middle.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  10. #20
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    That would be the most common-sense explanation... But what about the Death of the Author concept, though? Is the literary canon free for interpretation in spite of the author's "official" statements?
    Few Authors are truly able to allows their own selves to "die" before their writings. Ones that can transcend themselves are usually able to produce works of breathtaking beauty. Most are simply writing about themselves.

    Examples. (I am a huge fan of fantasy fiction right now, so this is where most of my examples will come from.)

    BAD:

    Christopher Palolini (whatever his name is) - kid who wrote those terrible "Dragon" books. If you haven't read them here is a summation: Imagine the love child if Star Wars and LOTR screwed each other.... and then made the author the main character.

    Stephanie Meyers of the horrific Twilight saga. Summation: Bella = who SM wanted to be in high school. Another summation: Twilight is the heartwarming tale of a young girl's journey into adulthood where she must choose (like every woman must eventually choose) between beastiality and necrophilia.

    GOOD:

    George RR Martin of Song of Ice and Fire fame: He has hundreds of unique characters, all of them various shades of gray. He's brilliant. Summation of series: He kills everyone.

    Terry Pratchett: HILARIOUS INXP author. OMG I adore him. Books are hilarious, often make social commentary on societies today... but it's done in a fairly subtle and funny kind of way. My favorite of his books, Jingo, made fun of language barriers by having a special font for when the "foreigners" were speaking.

    TLR Version: Any book that doesn't trust the reader to think for itself is a book that I don't trust myself. Make your argument... but ultimately it is I who will decide how much or how little merit it has with me.

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