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  1. #1
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile Liberal Democracy and God

    Ever since the Enlightenment discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, we have been limiting power with some success, for the House of Commons limited institutional power over slaves in 1833, and power over women was limited in the early part of 20th Century in Australia and New Zealand, and power over children was limited by our criminal courts at the end of 20th Century.

    And it was liberal democracy that limited power, for the very purpose of liberal democracy is the limitation of power.

    On the other hand, the very purpose of God is to maximise power. After all He created the whole universe and holds the power of life and death over each and every one of us, and this being not enough power, He can consign us to Hell or take us to Heaven in the afterlife.

    So liberal democracy limits power and God maximises power.

  2. #2
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Ever since the Enlightenment discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, we have been limiting power with some success, for the House of Commons limited institutional power over slaves in 1833, and power over women was limited in the early part of 20th Century in Australia and New Zealand, and power over children was limited by our criminal courts at the end of 20th Century.

    And it was liberal democracy that limited power, for the very purpose of liberal democracy is the limitation of power.

    On the other hand, the very purpose of God is to maximise power. After all He created the whole universe and holds the power of life and death over each and every one of us, and this being not enough power, He can consign us to Hell or take us to Heaven in the afterlife.

    So liberal democracy limits power and God maximises power.
    A few things to pick out. You have to really find your definition for God first. I'd like you to put into your own words, what God is. I'll describe afterwards and maybe try and help you with the question.
    "Others should not judge what you truly are, instead you should find yourself. You may find yourself in a bowl of cereal or dreaming of the unknown, but make sure it is you who finds you." - Myself


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  3. #3
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Ever since the Enlightenment discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely
    That was the enlightenment?

  4. #4
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That was the enlightenment?
    I would say a result of the Enlightenment rather than what the age what trying to do... aha.
    "Others should not judge what you truly are, instead you should find yourself. You may find yourself in a bowl of cereal or dreaming of the unknown, but make sure it is you who finds you." - Myself


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  5. #5
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
    I would say a result of the Enlightenment rather than what the age what trying to do... aha.
    I'm pretty sure the maxim that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely was thought up by a conservative and they saw it as relating not to absolute monarchs but the absolutism they saw in demagogues or elections.

    I'm not sure that the enlightenment was automatically about limiting the power of government or anyone else, in fact it sparked of most of the modern political ideologies and a lot of them were very short on limiting themselves, the authorities or others they thought should be invested with power. The enlightenment essentially made mankind over confident and invested it with the belief that there wasnt anything that wasnt knowable or changeable or immune to reinvention, there was a real disabling of consequential thinking for a while too, or at the very least the negative consequences of change where considered less important than the possible positive ones.

    The feminist and other champions of womens and childrens liberation are among the greatest critics of the enlightenment since it was gender blind and paid no attention what so ever to those groups. Its been attacked as an entirely male enterprise which failed to know itself and its prejudices.

    Victor has created his usual goodies vs. baddies dichotomy because he's all set to attack God and any believers who rise to the bait. As usual he's wrong though.

  6. #6
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm pretty sure the maxim that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely was thought up by a conservative and they saw it as relating not to absolute monarchs but the absolutism they saw in demagogues or elections.

    I'm not sure that the enlightenment was automatically about limiting the power of government or anyone else, in fact it sparked of most of the modern political ideologies and a lot of them were very short on limiting themselves, the authorities or others they thought should be invested with power. The enlightenment essentially made mankind over confident and invested it with the belief that there wasnt anything that wasnt knowable or changeable or immune to reinvention, there was a real disabling of consequential thinking for a while too, or at the very least the negative consequences of change where considered less important than the possible positive ones.

    The feminist and other champions of womens and childrens liberation are among the greatest critics of the enlightenment since it was gender blind and paid no attention what so ever to those groups. Its been attacked as an entirely male enterprise which failed to know itself and its prejudices.

    Victor has created his usual goodies vs. baddies dichotomy because he's all set to attack God and any believers who rise to the bait. As usual he's wrong though.
    Cool way to look at it. I'd be fine with him attacking me over God if he could prove he had the credentials to do so.
    "Others should not judge what you truly are, instead you should find yourself. You may find yourself in a bowl of cereal or dreaming of the unknown, but make sure it is you who finds you." - Myself


    ENTP
    Extroverted (E) 56.76% Introverted (I) 43.24%
    Intuitive (N) 64.29% Sensing (S) 35.71%
    Thinking (T) 62.5% Feeling (F) 37.5%
    Perceiving (P) 75% Judging (J) 25%

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  7. #7
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    Smile The Godheads

    Quote Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
    A few things to pick out. You have to really find your definition for God first. I'd like you to put into your own words, what God is. I'll describe afterwards and maybe try and help you with the question.
    There is the Hindu God, Ganesh, with the head of an elephant. And there is the Christian God with three heads. And there are all the Gods in between.

    We are meaning creating animals and have created ten thousand Gods to give meaning to our lives.

  8. #8
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    Smile Keeping God off the streets.

    Quote Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
    Cool way to look at it. I'd be fine with him attacking me over God if he could prove he had the credentials to do so.
    Credentials, credentials? I have street cred. As I swagger down the street, the little children cry, look out, look out, here comes Victor; the pretty girls bat their eye-lashes at me; and only my biggest, strongest and toughest lieutenant approaches me to keep me apprised of the God botherers. They all know, Victor is here, Victor is here to keep God off the streets.

  9. #9
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    There is the Hindu God, Ganesh, with the head of an elephant. And there is the Christian God with three heads. And there are all the Gods inbetween.

    We are meaning creating animals and have created ten thousand Gods to give meaning to our lives.
    Not good enough.
    "Others should not judge what you truly are, instead you should find yourself. You may find yourself in a bowl of cereal or dreaming of the unknown, but make sure it is you who finds you." - Myself


    ENTP
    Extroverted (E) 56.76% Introverted (I) 43.24%
    Intuitive (N) 64.29% Sensing (S) 35.71%
    Thinking (T) 62.5% Feeling (F) 37.5%
    Perceiving (P) 75% Judging (J) 25%

    9w8 SP/SX
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  10. #10
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    Thumbs down The Silence of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm pretty sure the maxim that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely was thought up by a conservative and they saw it as relating not to absolute monarchs but the absolutism they saw in demagogues or elections.

    I'm not sure that the enlightenment was automatically about limiting the power of government or anyone else, in fact it sparked of most of the modern political ideologies and a lot of them were very short on limiting themselves, the authorities or others they thought should be invested with power. The enlightenment essentially made mankind over confident and invested it with the belief that there wasnt anything that wasnt knowable or changeable or immune to reinvention, there was a real disabling of consequential thinking for a while too, or at the very least the negative consequences of change where considered less important than the possible positive ones.

    The feminist and other champions of womens and childrens liberation are among the greatest critics of the enlightenment since it was gender blind and paid no attention what so ever to those groups. Its been attacked as an entirely male enterprise which failed to know itself and its prejudices.

    Victor has created his usual goodies vs. baddies dichotomy because he's all set to attack God and any believers who rise to the bait. As usual he's wrong though.
    If only Jesus, or even one of his disciples, had once said they were opposed to institutional slavery, your position would be secure. But neither Jesus nor his disciples, even once, opposed institutional slavery.

    And from that silence of Jesus and his disciples, all the other evils followed, like patriarchy, the abuse of children, the abuse of homosexuals and two thousand years of anti-semitism, climaxing in the holocaust.

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