Prayer in school

[Sniffles]

IIRC Finland still has an official Lutheran state church.

 

[Ginkgo]

I think that anyone who wants to pray should probably pray, and anyone who doesn't want to pray probably shouldn't pray. But how on earth could we ever reach a compromise if some people want to pray, and some people don't? How could we possibly provide an environment where individuals can do more than one thing AND maintain the etiquette that we hold in high esteem, to live and let live. How, I ask you?

Very carefully.

 

[Red Herring]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion#Christian_countries

Jurisdictions which recognize a Lutheran church as their state religion include the Nordic countries. Membership is very high among the general population, however the amount of actively participating members and believers is considerably lower than in many other countries with similar membership statistics. Furthermore, all of these churches have lately seen decline in the fraction of the population being members.

Denmark (Church of Denmark)
Iceland (Church of Iceland) (79% of population members at the end of 2009)
Norway (Church of Norway) (80% of population members at the end of 2009)
Finland: Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act. The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the parliament. The Church Act is protected by the Finnish constitution, and the state can not change the Church Act without changing the constitution. The church has a power to tax its members and all corporations unless a majority of shareholders are members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in its graveyards. (79% of population members at the end of 2009). The Finnish president also decides the themes for the intercession days. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have the power to influence its internal workings or its theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precedence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.
Sweden relegated their state church into a national church in 2000. In late 2009 the church of Sweden had 71.3% of the population as its members in 2009.

 

[esidebill]

Very carefully.

More like, "in a perfect society" ... I hate that term.

 

[luminous beam]

I think that anyone who wants to pray should probably pray, and anyone who doesn't want to pray probably shouldn't pray. But how on earth could we ever reach a compromise if some people want to pray, and some people don't? How could we possibly provide an environment where individuals can do more than one thing AND maintain the etiquette that we hold in high esteem, to live and let live. How, I ask you?

I agree with what you've said about people that want to pray should, and those who don't want to, shouldn't have to. Why can't people who want to pray just pray quietly to themselves at any time of day, any place they're in. That to me sounds very unobtrusive. However, I am aware that there are probably some religions, like Muslim, for example, that sometimes may require you to face a certain direction and get down on the floor to do it. A set prayer time in a religious school could be nice, but perhaps students could be allowed to skip it if necessary.

I do not support prayer/religion being taught in schools that are not religious.

I'm sure there are some religious study classes in schools, I don't see anything wrong with students just learning about different cultures and religions. However, prayer within these classes could perhaps be limited to students who are willingly gathering for that sole purpose.

 

[Perch420]

Prayer should be illegal because religion is a burden on society.

 

[Litvyak]

Prayer should be illegal because religion is a burden on society.

The most basic thing about making laws is that you don't illegalize something unless it is possible to monitor and sanction non-compliance.
I don't care if you're 13 or 15 or whatever, stop spreading BS.

 

[esidebill]

Prayer should be illegal because religion is a burden on society.

Free thought is a burden on society.

 

[Mole]

The Nightmare of Religion

I believe we get many of our good morals from religion.

We get terrible morals from religion and the Abrahamic religions are a good example where God ordered Abraham to murder his son to test Abraham's obedience.

The Koran teaches the hatred of Jews, Dhimmi and Infidels and those who kill them will be rewarded by God in heaven with seventy-two virgins.

So rather than teaching good morals religion is a nightmare from which we are trying to wake up.

 

[Mole]

Why do we even separate the church and state?

We separate the Church and State in the West because of the wars of religion. We reached a settlement where freedom of religion was balanced by the separation of the Church and State.

Unfortunately Islam does not know the separation of Mosque and State and fully rejects such separation.

And worse, Islam has started a jihad in the West to bring Islam into the public arena once again. This is called Islamicisation and consists of terrorism, propaganda and migration.

We seem to be unable to do anything about this because we are not doing the same thing to them. And we can't even imagine why they are doing this to us.

 

[esidebill]

We get terrible morals from religion and the Abrahamic religions are a good example where God ordered Abraham to murder his son to test Abraham's obedience.

The Koran teaches the hatred of Jews, Dhimmi and Infidels and those who kill them will be rewarded by God in heaven with seventy-two virgins.

So rather than teaching good morals religion is a nightmare from which we are trying to wake up.

But is hatred really anything new to humankind?

 

[Mole]

Religion and Child Rearing

But is hatred really anything new to humankind?

It depends on our upbringing.

If our child rearing was the sacrificial mode, our psyche will be paranoid, as we will know that the very parents on whom we depend for our survival, killed one of our siblings.

Or if our child rearing was the abusive mode, we will act out our abuse on the vulnerable when the opportunity presents itself.

Of if our child rearing was authoritarian, our psyche will find safety in obedience to the rules.

And if we had the helping mode of child rearing, we will have empathic and creative psyches.

And note, the abusive form of child rearing is an improvement on the sacrificial mode. And the authoritarian mode is an improvement on the abusive mode. And the helping mode is an improvement on the authoritarian mode.

So religions reflect our child rearing practices.

 

[esidebill]

It depends on our upbringing.

If our child rearing was the sacrificial mode, our psyche will be paranoid, as we will know that the very parents on whom we depend for our survival, killed one of our siblings.

Or if our child rearing was the abusive mode, we will act out our abuse on the vulnerable when the opportunity presents itself.

Of if our child rearing was authoritarian, our psyche will find safety in obedience to the rules.

And if we had the helping mode of child rearing, we will have empathic and creative psyches.

And note, the abusive form of child rearing is an improvement on the sacrificial mode. And the authoritarian mode is an improvement on the abusive mode. And the helping mode is an improvement on the authoritarian mode.

So religions reflect our child rearing practices.

It could help bring it out earlier, but do you think that hatred wouldn't exist without religion?

 

[Mole]

It could help bring it out earlier, but do you think that hatred wouldn't exist without religion?

We both love and hate our mother. So love and hate are two sides of the same coin. We can't have one without the other. It is indifference that is the killer.

However religions have systematised hatred of other religions and sought to gain State power to oppress other religions, heretics and apostates.

Christian religions have given up State power in return for freedom of religion.

Unfortunately Islam has State power in fifty-seven Islamic States who have publicly and openly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And worse, Islam is seeking State power in liberal democracies in order to persecute and kill Jews, dhimmi, infidels and apostates.

 

[esidebill]

We both love and hate our mother. So love and hate are two sides of the same coin. We can't have one without the other. It is indifference that is the killer.

However religions have systematised hatred of other religions and sought to gain State power to oppress other religions, heretics and apostates.

Christian religions have given up State power in return for freedom of religion.

Unfortunately Islam has State power in fifty-seven Islamic States who have publicly and openly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And worse, Islam is seeking State power in liberal democracies in order to persecute and kill Jews, dhimmi, infidels and apostates.

I mean, looking at the Crusade, I don't doubt that religions have used their kingdoms to wage war on their own interests, but do you think that there are any good parts in religion? I'm just wondering if you're completely anti-religion or you do agree with some parts.

 

[Red Herring]

We both love and hate our mother. So love and hate are two sides of the same coin. We can't have one without the other. It is indifference that is the killer.

However religions have systematised hatred of other religions and sought to gain State power to oppress other religions, heretics and apostates.

Christian religions have given up State power in return for freedom of religion.

Unfortunately Islam has State power in fifty-seven Islamic States who have publicly and openly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And worse, Islam is seeking State power in liberal democracies in order to persecute and kill Jews, dhimmi, infidels and apostates.

Just how exactly does "Islam" seek state power to persecute people in the West? Who or what is that "Islam" and does he have an address I could write to in order to mail a letter of complaint?

When you talk about "us" and "them" and "war", what makes your rhetoric different from theirs and how far are you willing to go with this war and what are you willing to sacrifice for it? More importantly, what are you NOT willing to sacrifice for it?

And a brief comparison of some of those liberal democracies will show you that they aren't as monolithic as you might think. Just take a look at any of the threads here on hot button issues and you will see the pity state of humanism, reason and humanism in huge parts of that West you keep idealizing while simultaneously condemning every other culture.

 

[Mole]

I mean, looking at the Crusade, I don't doubt that religions have used their kingdoms to wage war on their own interests, but do you think that there are any good parts in religion? I'm just wondering if you're completely anti-religion or you do agree with some parts.

I think to ask what is good and bad in a religion is an important question to ask. Just as it is important to compare the good and bad in various religions.

I tend to dwell on the bad because worship does not encourage critical analysis, evaluation and integration.

Also I think religions reflect the times in which they where founded. And just as we don't hesitate to criticise the morals and mores of particular periods, why should we fail to criticise particular religions?

 

[esidebill]

I think to ask what is good and bad in a religion is an important question to ask. Just as it is important to compare the good and bad in various religions.

I tend to dwell on the bad because worship does not encourage critical analysis, evaluation and integration.

Also I think religions reflect the times in which they where founded. And just as we don't hesitate to criticise the morals and mores of particular periods, why should we fail to criticise particular religions?

See, the worship they do will often cause reflection on themselves. People will become critical of their own being usually. For good or bad? I don't know that answer. People will often analyze their religious texts. It's something right? Some people may be compelled by their religion to NOT believe in their religion after analyzing it. Perhaps, similar to you. The people who are critical of religions should at least have practiced the religion or extensively read up on it.

 

[Mole]

Just how exactly does "Islam" seek state power to persecute people in the West? Who or what is that "Islam" and does he have an address I could write to mail a letter of complaint?

When you talk about "us" and "them" and "war", what makes your rhetoric different from theirs and how far are you willing to go with this war and what are you willing to sacrifice for it? More importantly, what are you NOT willing to sacrifice for it?

And a brief comparison of some of those liberal democracies will show you that they aren't as monolithic as you might think. Just take a look at any of the threads here on hot button issues and you will see the pity state of humanism, reason and humanism in huge parts of that West you keep idealizing while simultaneously condemning every other culture.

There are three civilizations extant - the Indian civilization, the Chinese civilization and the Western civilization.

My home is Western civilization. And I defend my home in the same way I defend my mother.

Western civilization is under attack by Islam. Islam is not a civilization but rather a violent, political religion. I am reminded of this every time I drive around Canberra and see low, reinforced concrete walls around government buildings to protect them against Islamic car bombs.

I encourage you to write a letter of complaint to Islam and I suggest you write to one or all of the fifty-seven Islamic States who have publicly and openly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

But first I suggest you change your address, and perhaps even your country, and employ body guards lest you end up slaughtered in the street like Theodoor van Gogh.

 

[Red Herring]

Not to defend his assasination, but are you aware that the apparently much missed Theo van Gogh called Muslims goatfuckers and was well known not only for enciting hatred against Islam but also for his antisemitism?