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  1. #71
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We get terrible morals from religion and the Abrahamic religions are a good example where God ordered Abraham to murder his son to test Abraham's obedience.

    The Koran teaches the hatred of Jews, Dhimmi and Infidels and those who kill them will be rewarded by God in heaven with seventy-two virgins.

    So rather than teaching good morals religion is a nightmare from which we are trying to wake up.
    But is hatred really anything new to humankind?
    "Others should not judge what you truly are, instead you should find yourself. You may find yourself in a bowl of cereal or dreaming of the unknown, but make sure it is you who finds you." - Myself


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  2. #72
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    Religion and Child Rearing

    Quote Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
    But is hatred really anything new to humankind?
    It depends on our upbringing.

    If our child rearing was the sacrificial mode, our psyche will be paranoid, as we will know that the very parents on whom we depend for our survival, killed one of our siblings.

    Or if our child rearing was the abusive mode, we will act out our abuse on the vulnerable when the opportunity presents itself.

    Of if our child rearing was authoritarian, our psyche will find safety in obedience to the rules.

    And if we had the helping mode of child rearing, we will have empathic and creative psyches.

    And note, the abusive form of child rearing is an improvement on the sacrificial mode. And the authoritarian mode is an improvement on the abusive mode. And the helping mode is an improvement on the authoritarian mode.

    So religions reflect our child rearing practices.

  3. #73
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It depends on our upbringing.

    If our child rearing was the sacrificial mode, our psyche will be paranoid, as we will know that the very parents on whom we depend for our survival, killed one of our siblings.

    Or if our child rearing was the abusive mode, we will act out our abuse on the vulnerable when the opportunity presents itself.

    Of if our child rearing was authoritarian, our psyche will find safety in obedience to the rules.

    And if we had the helping mode of child rearing, we will have empathic and creative psyches.

    And note, the abusive form of child rearing is an improvement on the sacrificial mode. And the authoritarian mode is an improvement on the abusive mode. And the helping mode is an improvement on the authoritarian mode.

    So religions reflect our child rearing practices.
    It could help bring it out earlier, but do you think that hatred wouldn't exist without religion?
    "Others should not judge what you truly are, instead you should find yourself. You may find yourself in a bowl of cereal or dreaming of the unknown, but make sure it is you who finds you." - Myself


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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
    It could help bring it out earlier, but do you think that hatred wouldn't exist without religion?
    We both love and hate our mother. So love and hate are two sides of the same coin. We can't have one without the other. It is indifference that is the killer.

    However religions have systematised hatred of other religions and sought to gain State power to oppress other religions, heretics and apostates.

    Christian religions have given up State power in return for freedom of religion.

    Unfortunately Islam has State power in fifty-seven Islamic States who have publicly and openly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And worse, Islam is seeking State power in liberal democracies in order to persecute and kill Jews, dhimmi, infidels and apostates.

  5. #75
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We both love and hate our mother. So love and hate are two sides of the same coin. We can't have one without the other. It is indifference that is the killer.

    However religions have systematised hatred of other religions and sought to gain State power to oppress other religions, heretics and apostates.

    Christian religions have given up State power in return for freedom of religion.

    Unfortunately Islam has State power in fifty-seven Islamic States who have publicly and openly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And worse, Islam is seeking State power in liberal democracies in order to persecute and kill Jews, dhimmi, infidels and apostates.
    I mean, looking at the Crusade, I don't doubt that religions have used their kingdoms to wage war on their own interests, but do you think that there are any good parts in religion? I'm just wondering if you're completely anti-religion or you do agree with some parts.
    "Others should not judge what you truly are, instead you should find yourself. You may find yourself in a bowl of cereal or dreaming of the unknown, but make sure it is you who finds you." - Myself


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  6. #76
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We both love and hate our mother. So love and hate are two sides of the same coin. We can't have one without the other. It is indifference that is the killer.

    However religions have systematised hatred of other religions and sought to gain State power to oppress other religions, heretics and apostates.

    Christian religions have given up State power in return for freedom of religion.

    Unfortunately Islam has State power in fifty-seven Islamic States who have publicly and openly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And worse, Islam is seeking State power in liberal democracies in order to persecute and kill Jews, dhimmi, infidels and apostates.
    Just how exactly does "Islam" seek state power to persecute people in the West? Who or what is that "Islam" and does he have an address I could write to in order to mail a letter of complaint?

    When you talk about "us" and "them" and "war", what makes your rhetoric different from theirs and how far are you willing to go with this war and what are you willing to sacrifice for it? More importantly, what are you NOT willing to sacrifice for it?

    And a brief comparison of some of those liberal democracies will show you that they aren't as monolithic as you might think. Just take a look at any of the threads here on hot button issues and you will see the pity state of humanism, reason and humanism in huge parts of that West you keep idealizing while simultaneously condemning every other culture.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
    I mean, looking at the Crusade, I don't doubt that religions have used their kingdoms to wage war on their own interests, but do you think that there are any good parts in religion? I'm just wondering if you're completely anti-religion or you do agree with some parts.
    I think to ask what is good and bad in a religion is an important question to ask. Just as it is important to compare the good and bad in various religions.

    I tend to dwell on the bad because worship does not encourage critical analysis, evaluation and integration.

    Also I think religions reflect the times in which they where founded. And just as we don't hesitate to criticise the morals and mores of particular periods, why should we fail to criticise particular religions?

  8. #78
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I think to ask what is good and bad in a religion is an important question to ask. Just as it is important to compare the good and bad in various religions.

    I tend to dwell on the bad because worship does not encourage critical analysis, evaluation and integration.

    Also I think religions reflect the times in which they where founded. And just as we don't hesitate to criticise the morals and mores of particular periods, why should we fail to criticise particular religions?
    See, the worship they do will often cause reflection on themselves. People will become critical of their own being usually. For good or bad? I don't know that answer. People will often analyze their religious texts. It's something right? Some people may be compelled by their religion to NOT believe in their religion after analyzing it. Perhaps, similar to you. The people who are critical of religions should at least have practiced the religion or extensively read up on it.
    "Others should not judge what you truly are, instead you should find yourself. You may find yourself in a bowl of cereal or dreaming of the unknown, but make sure it is you who finds you." - Myself


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  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Just how exactly does "Islam" seek state power to persecute people in the West? Who or what is that "Islam" and does he have an address I could write to mail a letter of complaint?

    When you talk about "us" and "them" and "war", what makes your rhetoric different from theirs and how far are you willing to go with this war and what are you willing to sacrifice for it? More importantly, what are you NOT willing to sacrifice for it?

    And a brief comparison of some of those liberal democracies will show you that they aren't as monolithic as you might think. Just take a look at any of the threads here on hot button issues and you will see the pity state of humanism, reason and humanism in huge parts of that West you keep idealizing while simultaneously condemning every other culture.
    There are three civilizations extant - the Indian civilization, the Chinese civilization and the Western civilization.

    My home is Western civilization. And I defend my home in the same way I defend my mother.

    Western civilization is under attack by Islam. Islam is not a civilization but rather a violent, political religion. I am reminded of this every time I drive around Canberra and see low, reinforced concrete walls around government buildings to protect them against Islamic car bombs.

    I encourage you to write a letter of complaint to Islam and I suggest you write to one or all of the fifty-seven Islamic States who have publicly and openly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    But first I suggest you change your address, and perhaps even your country, and employ body guards lest you end up slaughtered in the street like Theodoor van Gogh.

  10. #80
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Not to defend his assasination, but are you aware that the apparently much missed Theo van Gogh called Muslims goatfuckers and was well known not only for enciting hatred against Islam but also for his antisemitism?
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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