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  1. #1
    figsfiggyfigs
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    Default The veil of ignorance, or ignorance of the veil?

    What stance do you have on the hijab? Personally, I've grown up without wearing one, but now I'm in my early twenties and I guess something spritiual is stirring inside of me. As a result I'm very much considering adopting the tradition in order to get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil. I'm starting to believe only ignorant people would be against it, and the recent French law prohibiting the veil is absolutely ridiculous..


  2. #2
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    Thumbs down The Hijab and Sharia

    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    What stance do you have on the hijab? Personally, I've grown up without wearing one, but now I'm in my early twenties and I guess something spritiual is stirring inside of me. As a result I'm very much considering adopting the tradition in order to get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil. I'm starting to believe only ignorant people would be against it, and the recent French law prohibiting the veil is absolutely ridiculous..

    The hijab stands for Sharia. And Sharia is opposed to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And Sharia teaches violent jihad and martyrdom. And also Sharia teaches hatred of Jews, of Dhimmi, of Christians and Pagans and Infidels.

    But worse Sharia is totalitarian. So Sharia and Liberal Democracy are diametrically opposed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    What stance do you have on the hijab? Personally, I've grown up without wearing one, but now I'm in my early twenties and I guess something spritiual is stirring inside of me. As a result I'm very much considering adopting the tradition in order to get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil. I'm starting to believe only ignorant people would be against it, and the recent French law prohibiting the veil is absolutely ridiculous..

    I am interested, what spiritual stirrings? What has inspired this? If you have not practiced this tradition is it practiced in your family or community or would it be a new departure from both of these to adopt this practice? How would this bring you closer to God and please tell me how you reached the conclusion that only ignorant people (do you mean ignorant as in rude or ignorant as in unknowing?) are against such practices? I do not know a lot about the French law prohibiting it so I will reserve comment on that myself.

    This is interesting, interesting to me because it can involve affording respect (and even protections) to practitioners of this faith inspired behaviour which would not be otherwise afforded, for instance you can not go into a bank wearing a motor cycle helmet, male or female, without triggering a security concern but it may be expected that a wearer of the veil will be permitted to do so (I say maybe because I am aware that in some versions of this practice women would not be expected or permitted to do such a thing, being confined to the family or husband's home and perhaps only being required to cover up on the few occasions they must leave the residence).

    I like to think I am not ignorant to the veil, there are practices within Christendom which are similar, they have been mostly forgotten and were cultural rather than Church teaching and therefore not necessary to fidelity to ones faith. They governed mainly women but there were expectations for men also, these were not political instruments of domination but practices resonating or reflecting upon standards of decency, piety and humility in the day.

    In spanish Churches to this day it is expected that no one will wear so much as a head scarf or bandana in a church (I know because I've been asked to remove one) if you are a male, no matter how hot it is you will be expected to wear trousers which cover the legs completely, women on the other hand will be asked to cover their heads and wear ankle length skirts (some churches provide dress/surong wraps for visitors or tourists).

    While not always supporting these practices I can respect them, however, they do not present the same especial problems as I can see the veils of the islamic traditions presenting.

    The rights of religious expression are ones which I can understand however, we live in an increasingly secularised society apparently devoid of meaning, values or principles and human beings being symbol creating and following beings it is only natural that they may wish to distinguish themselves from that in their behaviour, including their dress.

    The only other big problem which I know of associated with religious expression, which I do believe may be problmatic in a modern sense, include the rights of Sikh's to carry daggers (it is mandated by the gurus who believe that adherents of their teachings be practically equipped to challenge oppression or injustice) or some Arthurian and Celtic branches of Christian or Druidic faiths which mandate the bearing of short or long swords (although this may not be everywhere and always, I know of one case only to be honest).

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    Westerners tend to identify the hijab with opression of women. I've watched documentaries and human interest stories explaining the importance and significance of the hijab to the women who wear them. It really has countered my preconceptions of what it was all about. I really think it's a beautiful thing if it's meaningful to you.

  5. #5
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    If you do it out of your own will, then why not.

    In our culture women are expected to paint their face every day and have long hair in order to feel accepted. If they really want to look like real women, they will put on shoes that make their walking difficult, running impossible, and a skirt that allows easy access for the man to take what is his.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    Westerners tend to identify the hijab with opression of women. I've watched documentaries and human interest stories explaining the importance and significance of the hijab to the women who wear them. It really has countered my preconceptions of what it was all about. I really think it's a beautiful thing if it's meaningful to you.
    I think it may or may not be oppressive to women, it depends, although mind you the same arguments about choice and voluntarism are used to justify the hijab as are used to justify the participation of vulnerable women in pornographic films and I'm inclined to think there's got to be a middle ground.

    I am also interested in what these things say about men, my understanding of the hijab does not really flatter men too much, that they will be unable to control themselves, resist temptations of the flesh or refrain from rape or battery of women who fail to cover themselves up? I hate that "they were asking for it" argument in whatever shape it arises, religious or secular.

    Similarly to the aspect of it may or may not be oppressive, it may or may not be beautiful. If that's YWIR in her avatar then I think she's beautiful as is and doesnt need a hijab.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think it may or may not be oppressive to women, it depends, although mind you the same arguments about choice and voluntarism are used to justify the hijab as are used to justify the participation of vulnerable women in pornographic films and I'm inclined to think there's got to be a middle ground.
    I don't think there really can be a middle ground. As long as there are people who want to use you, they will find enough weak people to be abused. The middle ground is impossible to find since these dress codes have nothing to do with nothing. They are lines drawn in water, with no relevance to anything "real" that could be measured.

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    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think it may or may not be oppressive to women, it depends, although mind you the same arguments about choice and voluntarism are used to justify the hijab as are used to justify the participation of vulnerable women in pornographic films and I'm inclined to think there's got to be a middle ground.

    I am also interested in what these things say about men, my understanding of the hijab does not really flatter men too much, that they will be unable to control themselves, resist temptations of the flesh or refrain from rape or battery of women who fail to cover themselves up? I hate that "they were asking for it" argument in whatever shape it arises, religious or secular.
    I don't think the modern usage is as extreme as that. Besides all that lust and rape talk, there's a truth that exists that women *are* judged on their looks by men and women alike, more so than men. It may be the case that the hijab is more benefit to the woman than the man in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Similarly to the aspect of it may or may not be oppressive, it may or may not be beautiful. If that's YWIR in her avatar then I think she's beautiful as is and doesnt need a hijab.
    A value judgment based on only on beauty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    I don't think the modern usage is as extreme as that. Besides all that lust and rape talk, there's a truth that exists that women *are* judged on their looks by men and women alike, more so than men. It may be the case that the hijab is more benefit to the woman than the man in Islam.
    Yeah, born free most people enter volunteer for the chains which enslave and ensnare them.


    A value judgment based on only on beauty.
    I like beauty

  10. #10
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    What stance do you have on the hijab?
    I have always wanted to ask a muslim woman how she feels about this. It is my understanding that the purpose of it (and burkas, etc) is to keep men from sinning and women from being treated disrespectfully. Men are visual. They want to, and will look. God requires modesty and keeping the eyes from sin. So, in that respect it is considered good. But, in some areas (like Afghanistan with the Taliban), they abuse the purpose by also making women chattel that are just property with no respect other than their use? At least, that is what I see. Let me know your thoughts on it.

    Something I find interesting is that in the US, muslim women are wearing much tighter clothing than anywhere else I have seen? I was recently clothes shopping. There were several muslim women in the store shopping as well. Two of three were wearing full length wraps, but the wraps were so tight that they showed everything, including the full outline of their breast. They were in effect wearing a skin tight dress. Seems to defeat the purpose entirely?

    Do you live in a non muslim country? I am curious if they dress the same or is it really traditional and like a baggy dress? I am also curious on your thoughts of the face covering that is shown in the image? To me, it appears women that use these things try to make them as sexy as possible. They make their eyes, the feature mostly seen smoky and alluring. They dress them up with jewelry so they stand out, etc. To me, that shows that they protest being hidden from view and losing their identity. What do you think about that aspect?

    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil.
    I am curious how that is...how does it make you closer to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    I'm starting to believe only ignorant people would be against it, and the recent French law prohibiting the veil is absolutely ridiculous..
    Personally, I think you should be able to wear it if you want to. Problem is, there are areas that force it on girls and women. They have thrown boiling oil in the faces of women and teens that chose not to in order to ensure compliance of others. Pretty barbaric in my opinion.

    As to wearing in public, I think the reality is, because of the terrorism by muslims and their use of women and children in the past to reach their goals, you will have to accept that you can not wear it in public in some places no matter how much anyone fights about it.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

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