The veil of ignorance, or ignorance of the veil?

[figsfiggyfigs]

What stance do you have on the hijab? Personally, I've grown up without wearing one, but now I'm in my early twenties and I guess something spritiual is stirring inside of me. As a result I'm very much considering adopting the tradition in order to get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil. I'm starting to believe only ignorant people would be against it, and the recent French law prohibiting the veil is absolutely ridiculous..

 

[Mole]

The Hijab and Sharia

What stance do you have on the hijab? Personally, I've grown up without wearing one, but now I'm in my early twenties and I guess something spritiual is stirring inside of me. As a result I'm very much considering adopting the tradition in order to get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil. I'm starting to believe only ignorant people would be against it, and the recent French law prohibiting the veil is absolutely ridiculous..

The hijab stands for Sharia. And Sharia is opposed to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And Sharia teaches violent jihad and martyrdom. And also Sharia teaches hatred of Jews, of Dhimmi, of Christians and Pagans and Infidels.

But worse Sharia is totalitarian. So Sharia and Liberal Democracy are diametrically opposed.

 

[Lark]

What stance do you have on the hijab? Personally, I've grown up without wearing one, but now I'm in my early twenties and I guess something spritiual is stirring inside of me. As a result I'm very much considering adopting the tradition in order to get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil. I'm starting to believe only ignorant people would be against it, and the recent French law prohibiting the veil is absolutely ridiculous..

I am interested, what spiritual stirrings? What has inspired this? If you have not practiced this tradition is it practiced in your family or community or would it be a new departure from both of these to adopt this practice? How would this bring you closer to God and please tell me how you reached the conclusion that only ignorant people (do you mean ignorant as in rude or ignorant as in unknowing?) are against such practices? I do not know a lot about the French law prohibiting it so I will reserve comment on that myself.

This is interesting, interesting to me because it can involve affording respect (and even protections) to practitioners of this faith inspired behaviour which would not be otherwise afforded, for instance you can not go into a bank wearing a motor cycle helmet, male or female, without triggering a security concern but it may be expected that a wearer of the veil will be permitted to do so (I say maybe because I am aware that in some versions of this practice women would not be expected or permitted to do such a thing, being confined to the family or husband's home and perhaps only being required to cover up on the few occasions they must leave the residence).

I like to think I am not ignorant to the veil, there are practices within Christendom which are similar, they have been mostly forgotten and were cultural rather than Church teaching and therefore not necessary to fidelity to ones faith. They governed mainly women but there were expectations for men also, these were not political instruments of domination but practices resonating or reflecting upon standards of decency, piety and humility in the day.

In spanish Churches to this day it is expected that no one will wear so much as a head scarf or bandana in a church (I know because I've been asked to remove one) if you are a male, no matter how hot it is you will be expected to wear trousers which cover the legs completely, women on the other hand will be asked to cover their heads and wear ankle length skirts (some churches provide dress/surong wraps for visitors or tourists).

While not always supporting these practices I can respect them, however, they do not present the same especial problems as I can see the veils of the islamic traditions presenting.

The rights of religious expression are ones which I can understand however, we live in an increasingly secularised society apparently devoid of meaning, values or principles and human beings being symbol creating and following beings it is only natural that they may wish to distinguish themselves from that in their behaviour, including their dress.

The only other big problem which I know of associated with religious expression, which I do believe may be problmatic in a modern sense, include the rights of Sikh's to carry daggers (it is mandated by the gurus who believe that adherents of their teachings be practically equipped to challenge oppression or injustice) or some Arthurian and Celtic branches of Christian or Druidic faiths which mandate the bearing of short or long swords (although this may not be everywhere and always, I know of one case only to be honest).

 

[Qlip]

Westerners tend to identify the hijab with opression of women. I've watched documentaries and human interest stories explaining the importance and significance of the hijab to the women who wear them. It really has countered my preconceptions of what it was all about. I really think it's a beautiful thing if it's meaningful to you.

 

[nolla]

If you do it out of your own will, then why not.

In our culture women are expected to paint their face every day and have long hair in order to feel accepted. If they really want to look like real women, they will put on shoes that make their walking difficult, running impossible, and a skirt that allows easy access for the man to take what is his.

 

[Lark]

Westerners tend to identify the hijab with opression of women. I've watched documentaries and human interest stories explaining the importance and significance of the hijab to the women who wear them. It really has countered my preconceptions of what it was all about. I really think it's a beautiful thing if it's meaningful to you.

I think it may or may not be oppressive to women, it depends, although mind you the same arguments about choice and voluntarism are used to justify the hijab as are used to justify the participation of vulnerable women in pornographic films and I'm inclined to think there's got to be a middle ground.

I am also interested in what these things say about men, my understanding of the hijab does not really flatter men too much, that they will be unable to control themselves, resist temptations of the flesh or refrain from rape or battery of women who fail to cover themselves up? I hate that "they were asking for it" argument in whatever shape it arises, religious or secular.

Similarly to the aspect of it may or may not be oppressive, it may or may not be beautiful. If that's YWIR in her avatar then I think she's beautiful as is and doesnt need a hijab.

 

[nolla]

I think it may or may not be oppressive to women, it depends, although mind you the same arguments about choice and voluntarism are used to justify the hijab as are used to justify the participation of vulnerable women in pornographic films and I'm inclined to think there's got to be a middle ground.

I don't think there really can be a middle ground. As long as there are people who want to use you, they will find enough weak people to be abused. The middle ground is impossible to find since these dress codes have nothing to do with nothing. They are lines drawn in water, with no relevance to anything "real" that could be measured.

 

[Qlip]

I think it may or may not be oppressive to women, it depends, although mind you the same arguments about choice and voluntarism are used to justify the hijab as are used to justify the participation of vulnerable women in pornographic films and I'm inclined to think there's got to be a middle ground.

I am also interested in what these things say about men, my understanding of the hijab does not really flatter men too much, that they will be unable to control themselves, resist temptations of the flesh or refrain from rape or battery of women who fail to cover themselves up? I hate that "they were asking for it" argument in whatever shape it arises, religious or secular.

I don't think the modern usage is as extreme as that. Besides all that lust and rape talk, there's a truth that exists that women *are* judged on their looks by men and women alike, more so than men. It may be the case that the hijab is more benefit to the woman than the man in Islam.

Similarly to the aspect of it may or may not be oppressive, it may or may not be beautiful. If that's YWIR in her avatar then I think she's beautiful as is and doesnt need a hijab.

A value judgment based on only on beauty.

 

[Lark]

I don't think the modern usage is as extreme as that. Besides all that lust and rape talk, there's a truth that exists that women *are* judged on their looks by men and women alike, more so than men. It may be the case that the hijab is more benefit to the woman than the man in Islam.

Yeah, born free most people enter volunteer for the chains which enslave and ensnare them.

A value judgment based on only on beauty.

I like beauty

 

[ThinkingAboutIt]

What stance do you have on the hijab?

I have always wanted to ask a muslim woman how she feels about this. It is my understanding that the purpose of it (and burkas, etc) is to keep men from sinning and women from being treated disrespectfully. Men are visual. They want to, and will look. God requires modesty and keeping the eyes from sin. So, in that respect it is considered good. But, in some areas (like Afghanistan with the Taliban), they abuse the purpose by also making women chattel that are just property with no respect other than their use? At least, that is what I see. Let me know your thoughts on it.

Something I find interesting is that in the US, muslim women are wearing much tighter clothing than anywhere else I have seen? I was recently clothes shopping. There were several muslim women in the store shopping as well. Two of three were wearing full length wraps, but the wraps were so tight that they showed everything, including the full outline of their breast. They were in effect wearing a skin tight dress. Seems to defeat the purpose entirely?

Do you live in a non muslim country? I am curious if they dress the same or is it really traditional and like a baggy dress? I am also curious on your thoughts of the face covering that is shown in the image? To me, it appears women that use these things try to make them as sexy as possible. They make their eyes, the feature mostly seen smoky and alluring. They dress them up with jewelry so they stand out, etc. To me, that shows that they protest being hidden from view and losing their identity. What do you think about that aspect?

get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil.

I am curious how that is...how does it make you closer to God?

I'm starting to believe only ignorant people would be against it, and the recent French law prohibiting the veil is absolutely ridiculous..

Personally, I think you should be able to wear it if you want to. Problem is, there are areas that force it on girls and women. They have thrown boiling oil in the faces of women and teens that chose not to in order to ensure compliance of others. Pretty barbaric in my opinion.

As to wearing in public, I think the reality is, because of the terrorism by muslims and their use of women and children in the past to reach their goals, you will have to accept that you can not wear it in public in some places no matter how much anyone fights about it.

 

[Qlip]

Yeah, born free most people enter volunteer for the chains which enslave and ensnare them.

Look, something like the hijab has context completely dependant on environment. When freely chosen it can be a symbol of empowerment and resisitance against judgment in a male oriented society. The West is still a male oriented society.

I like beauty

Yes.. don't we all. The problem is when we judge another human's worth based on that. You said that the lady in YWIR's didn't need a hijab because she was beautiful. You're missing the point.

 

[Lark]

Look, something like the hijab has context completely dependant on environment. When freely chosen it can be a symbol of empowerment and resisitance against judgment in a male oriented society. The West is still a male oriented society.

Yes.. don't we all. The problem is when we judge another human's worth based on that. You said that the lady in YWIR's didn't need a hijab because she was beautiful. You're missing the point.

I dont think that we live in a male orientated society, having read and digested most of the feminist canon I can honestly say that many of the issues they legitimately had with patriarchy are shared, although perhaps not equally or uniformly, by both sexes now. I dont buy many of the hackneyed myths about structural and cultural bias against women and for men.

You may say I miss the point about beauty but its my point to make, I dont believe someone is unworthy because they are not beautiful, I dont believe that beauty is the only criteria for judging worth but it IS one of them.

So much of the well meaning social critiques have condemned beauty in vane attempts to make people who dont conform to asthetic standards feel better and its been a total failure, attractive and physically athletic or conditioned men and women still ship goods and catch the eye for the ad men. I acknowledge that, contra the critiques, I even celebrate it, I might never conform to that standard but I'm fine with it being there.

 

[Saslou]

I respect those who choose to wear it due to their own personal beliefs.

I have wondered personally though if the hijab is some form of control by man/religion etc.

 

[gromit]

Personally, I've grown up without wearing one, but now I'm in my early twenties and I guess something spritiual is stirring inside of me. As a result I'm very much considering adopting the tradition in order to get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil.

I understand wanting a tangible spiritual symbol like that! Can you explain some more what you mean about getting closer to God with the veil than without? Why as a woman it is different?

I really admire it when people make choices that are right for them despite how they were raised or what everyone else around them is doing. One issue, and please excuse my ignorance, I don't know the name of it, but the kind that obscures a person's face, that can be a problem with legal identification and that sort of thing, so I can see that as an issue, but otherwise, matters like this should totally be a person's choice. Nobody should be forcing anyone to dress a particular way.

The hijab stands for Sharia. And Sharia is opposed to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And Sharia teaches violent jihad and martyrdom. And also Sharia teaches hatred of Jews, of Dhimmi, of Christians and Pagans and Infidels.

But worse Sharia is totalitarian. So Sharia and Liberal Democracy are diametrically opposed.

This is super offensive!

 

[Qre:us]

What stance do you have on the hijab?

I see it as a symbol of proclaiming one's identity as part of a religion. Like wearing a cross, etc. Although, the idea of a burqa infuriates me.

Personally, I've grown up without wearing one, but now I'm in my early twenties and I guess something spritiual is stirring inside of me. As a result I'm very much considering adopting the tradition in order to get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil.

One of my friends took on the hijab when she went into University, as she found a great social network of other Muslim girls, who practised it themselves, and she found a resonance. I remember her calling me up, to tell me of her decision, so very hesitantly, and I congratulated her. She was quite surprised by my reaction, because the reactions she got from our other friends were skepticism and "why would you do that for?". She never thought to wear it while we were in high school (mom didn't, sister didn't, extended family didn't), and after university, she gave up the hijab again (she's a mama of 2 boys now). Another of my friend took on the hijab during puberty and has kept it ever since. It is a very intrinsic part of her identity.

I think an important thing to realize about the hijab is that it is not explicitly perscribed in concrete terms in the Qu'ran. The passages say to cover one's bosom and dress modestly, with eyes down. Interpretations by scholars have led to a conclusion that what is being asked is the hijab [some go as far as to say, it's asking for the burqa].

And, I don't know if you are familiar with the history of the hijab in Islam, but, it wasn't originally ordained as a required piece of clothing of religious significance. The evolution of the hijab within Islam is best seen within the cultural context through which religion manifested. It is not simply and only a religious matter (as very few things rarely are).

The veil itself is older than Islam, and Muslims in the 1st century were much more liberal in terms of women's dress than some surrounding cultures of the time. And, in the early history, the veil was seen as a status symbol of the rich - they could afford to keep their women in the house, a prized posession hidden from all and sundry. In terms of the veil becoming not just common, but an enforcement of the common law - that came into effect, really, in the Middle Ages.

So, I don't know how much you're internalizing the hijab as strictly a spiritual rite of religious passage versus a cultural rite of passage.

 

[Qre:us]

You may say I miss the point about beauty but its my point to make, I dont believe someone is unworthy because they are not beautiful, I dont believe that beauty is the only criteria for judging worth but it IS one of them.

So much of the well meaning social critiques have condemned beauty in vane attempts to make people who dont conform to asthetic standards feel better and its been a total failure, attractive and physically athletic or conditioned men and women still ship goods and catch the eye for the ad men. I acknowledge that, contra the critiques, I even celebrate it, I might never conform to that standard but I'm fine with it being there.

^ This is the very reason the hijab is promoted....to eradicate the need to judge a woman based on her looks, but her deeds.

It's the EXACT SAME REASON the nuns in catholicism take on the attire that they do - renunciation of vanity (hair has long been seen as a source for a female's vanity with her looks, thus, a lot of cultures cover it up), by practicisng modesty and humility.

 

[lowtech redneck]

This is super offensive!

I agree...too bad its true, at least according to a huge percentage of Muslims (such as 84-85% of the Muslims in Egypt and Jordan!).

I don't particularly care about the hijab in itself, though; it correlates with illiberal interpretations of Islam, but is not directly problematic when worn voluntarily. I care about beliefs, not clothing.

Edit: I think that increasing identification with the hijab/niqab by Western and/or secular Muslim women is much like my affinity for the Confederate battle flag; a means of defiantly expressing cultural identity in the face of prejiduce, and an attempt to 'take back' a cultural symbol while others attempt to define it for me.

 

[Sniffles]

The veil itself is older than Islam, and Muslims in the 1st century

Not to nitpick, but are you going by the Islamic calendar?

 

[Qre:us]

Not to nitpick, but are you going by the Islamic calendar?

This is an irrelevant question as according to the Julian calendar, in 1st century, Islam isn't even "born" yet. So, ofc, it's by their calendar. I.e., to illustrate my point, what the practices were with regards to the veil, at the beginning of Islam.

Edit: but I understand your confusion, as I related to the "Middle Ages" and so forth...so, yeah, thanks for asking.

 

[Sniffles]

Well technically we use the Gregorian calendar now.

Anyways, in regards to the OP I generally don't oppose the hijab out of a general concern for modesty. I don't think it's the horrible symbol of female oppression that many make it out to be, and I've heard many women voluntarily prefer wearing it.