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  1. #11
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, born free most people enter volunteer for the chains which enslave and ensnare them.
    Look, something like the hijab has context completely dependant on environment. When freely chosen it can be a symbol of empowerment and resisitance against judgment in a male oriented society. The West is still a male oriented society.

    I like beauty
    Yes.. don't we all. The problem is when we judge another human's worth based on that. You said that the lady in YWIR's didn't need a hijab because she was beautiful. You're missing the point.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    Look, something like the hijab has context completely dependant on environment. When freely chosen it can be a symbol of empowerment and resisitance against judgment in a male oriented society. The West is still a male oriented society.

    Yes.. don't we all. The problem is when we judge another human's worth based on that. You said that the lady in YWIR's didn't need a hijab because she was beautiful. You're missing the point.
    I dont think that we live in a male orientated society, having read and digested most of the feminist canon I can honestly say that many of the issues they legitimately had with patriarchy are shared, although perhaps not equally or uniformly, by both sexes now. I dont buy many of the hackneyed myths about structural and cultural bias against women and for men.

    You may say I miss the point about beauty but its my point to make, I dont believe someone is unworthy because they are not beautiful, I dont believe that beauty is the only criteria for judging worth but it IS one of them.

    So much of the well meaning social critiques have condemned beauty in vane attempts to make people who dont conform to asthetic standards feel better and its been a total failure, attractive and physically athletic or conditioned men and women still ship goods and catch the eye for the ad men. I acknowledge that, contra the critiques, I even celebrate it, I might never conform to that standard but I'm fine with it being there.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    I respect those who choose to wear it due to their own personal beliefs.

    I have wondered personally though if the hijab is some form of control by man/religion etc.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  4. #14
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    Personally, I've grown up without wearing one, but now I'm in my early twenties and I guess something spritiual is stirring inside of me. As a result I'm very much considering adopting the tradition in order to get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil.
    I understand wanting a tangible spiritual symbol like that! Can you explain some more what you mean about getting closer to God with the veil than without? Why as a woman it is different?

    I really admire it when people make choices that are right for them despite how they were raised or what everyone else around them is doing. One issue, and please excuse my ignorance, I don't know the name of it, but the kind that obscures a person's face, that can be a problem with legal identification and that sort of thing, so I can see that as an issue, but otherwise, matters like this should totally be a person's choice. Nobody should be forcing anyone to dress a particular way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The hijab stands for Sharia. And Sharia is opposed to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And Sharia teaches violent jihad and martyrdom. And also Sharia teaches hatred of Jews, of Dhimmi, of Christians and Pagans and Infidels.

    But worse Sharia is totalitarian. So Sharia and Liberal Democracy are diametrically opposed.
    This is super offensive!
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    What stance do you have on the hijab?
    I see it as a symbol of proclaiming one's identity as part of a religion. Like wearing a cross, etc. Although, the idea of a burqa infuriates me.

    Personally, I've grown up without wearing one, but now I'm in my early twenties and I guess something spritiual is stirring inside of me. As a result I'm very much considering adopting the tradition in order to get closer to God than a woman would be able to without the veil.
    One of my friends took on the hijab when she went into University, as she found a great social network of other Muslim girls, who practised it themselves, and she found a resonance. I remember her calling me up, to tell me of her decision, so very hesitantly, and I congratulated her. She was quite surprised by my reaction, because the reactions she got from our other friends were skepticism and "why would you do that for?". She never thought to wear it while we were in high school (mom didn't, sister didn't, extended family didn't), and after university, she gave up the hijab again (she's a mama of 2 boys now). Another of my friend took on the hijab during puberty and has kept it ever since. It is a very intrinsic part of her identity.

    I think an important thing to realize about the hijab is that it is not explicitly perscribed in concrete terms in the Qu'ran. The passages say to cover one's bosom and dress modestly, with eyes down. Interpretations by scholars have led to a conclusion that what is being asked is the hijab [some go as far as to say, it's asking for the burqa].

    And, I don't know if you are familiar with the history of the hijab in Islam, but, it wasn't originally ordained as a required piece of clothing of religious significance. The evolution of the hijab within Islam is best seen within the cultural context through which religion manifested. It is not simply and only a religious matter (as very few things rarely are).

    The veil itself is older than Islam, and Muslims in the 1st century were much more liberal in terms of women's dress than some surrounding cultures of the time. And, in the early history, the veil was seen as a status symbol of the rich - they could afford to keep their women in the house, a prized posession hidden from all and sundry. In terms of the veil becoming not just common, but an enforcement of the common law - that came into effect, really, in the Middle Ages.

    So, I don't know how much you're internalizing the hijab as strictly a spiritual rite of religious passage versus a cultural rite of passage.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You may say I miss the point about beauty but its my point to make, I dont believe someone is unworthy because they are not beautiful, I dont believe that beauty is the only criteria for judging worth but it IS one of them.

    So much of the well meaning social critiques have condemned beauty in vane attempts to make people who dont conform to asthetic standards feel better and its been a total failure, attractive and physically athletic or conditioned men and women still ship goods and catch the eye for the ad men. I acknowledge that, contra the critiques, I even celebrate it, I might never conform to that standard but I'm fine with it being there.
    ^ This is the very reason the hijab is promoted....to eradicate the need to judge a woman based on her looks, but her deeds.

    It's the EXACT SAME REASON the nuns in catholicism take on the attire that they do - renunciation of vanity (hair has long been seen as a source for a female's vanity with her looks, thus, a lot of cultures cover it up), by practicisng modesty and humility.

  7. #17
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    This is super offensive!
    I agree...too bad its true, at least according to a huge percentage of Muslims (such as 84-85% of the Muslims in Egypt and Jordan!).

    I don't particularly care about the hijab in itself, though; it correlates with illiberal interpretations of Islam, but is not directly problematic when worn voluntarily. I care about beliefs, not clothing.

    Edit: I think that increasing identification with the hijab/niqab by Western and/or secular Muslim women is much like my affinity for the Confederate battle flag; a means of defiantly expressing cultural identity in the face of prejiduce, and an attempt to 'take back' a cultural symbol while others attempt to define it for me.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    The veil itself is older than Islam, and Muslims in the 1st century
    Not to nitpick, but are you going by the Islamic calendar?

  9. #19
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Not to nitpick, but are you going by the Islamic calendar?
    This is an irrelevant question as according to the Julian calendar, in 1st century, Islam isn't even "born" yet. So, ofc, it's by their calendar. I.e., to illustrate my point, what the practices were with regards to the veil, at the beginning of Islam.

    Edit: but I understand your confusion, as I related to the "Middle Ages" and so forth...so, yeah, thanks for asking.

  10. #20
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    Well technically we use the Gregorian calendar now.

    Anyways, in regards to the OP I generally don't oppose the hijab out of a general concern for modesty. I don't think it's the horrible symbol of female oppression that many make it out to be, and I've heard many women voluntarily prefer wearing it.

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