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  1. #81
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Which is a personal view, but why is it any more "morally right" than the views of those who treat nature (eg the life of a dolphin) as being as important and those of humanity?
    Because any person who would view a human life as being inferior in worth to that of a dolphin's, is an idiot.
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  2. #82
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6sticks View Post
    You yourself said you wouldn't lose any respect for someone who didn't think genocide was wrong.
    Which isn't anywhere the same thing as being neutral on genocide. Understanding and tolerance are not acceptance and support.

    You said adhering to the "universal truth" is what's important, regardless of the consequences.
    No I didn't: I said that consequences are not what, to me, should determine the validity of a set of morals. Not the same thing at all. And most definitely NOT the same thing as "disagreeing with preventing physical harm to others"!

  3. #83
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Because any person who would view a human life as being inferior in worth to that of a dolphin's, is an idiot.
    Why?

    And what about "equal in worth"?

  4. #84
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Because any person who would view a human life as being inferior in worth to that of a dolphin's, is an idiot.
    I actually said "as important" not superior, but that's of no matter.

    ....you state that a person with this view is an idiot. Is that by reference to your morals as per your upbringing, or inherent in you? Is someone brought up in a culture that reveres a dolphin as being as important as humanity, also "an idiot" or do they just have a different cultural upbringing and therefore morals? Do you see the point?

    [and if you think the "dolphin" example is silly, think Sacred Cows and India]

  5. #85
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Yeah, and your point? I comfortably draw the line at the species level, i.e. to me, human beings, ultimately matter more than other species.
    this is about as simply as i can put it..

    morals are a simplified approach to what is logical for our species. since it is simplified, any form of "morality" will not apply to everything. it doesnt make much sense to claim that morals relative to yourself are intrinsically better than morals relative to society, or anything, really. they're all overly-simplistic at the end of the day, but still necessary because most of society lacks the critical thinking required to decide what is really right and wrong in any given situation.

    it is my suspicion that others or yourself have deemed you as having a "good moral compass" simply because you are more logical than the average bear, and as stated earlier, morals are derived from a sect of logic.

    if someone would like to disagree, i will ask this question proactively: if morals arent derived from logic, where do they come from and why should we follow them?

  6. #86
    Senior Member 6sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Which isn't anywhere the same thing as being neutral on genocide. Understanding and tolerance are not acceptance and support.
    Okay, well I'm intolerant of murderers. I don't support dictators. I guess we'll just have to call it even.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    No I didn't: I said that consequences are not what, to me, should determine the validity of a set of morals. Not the same thing at all. And most definitely NOT the same thing as "disagreeing with preventing physical harm to others"!
    Okay, so you agree that following your morals is more important than the consequences. If the consequences were physical harm to someone but you still were able to follow the "universal truth", then that's what really matters to you, right?
    No offense.

  7. #87
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6sticks View Post
    Okay, well I'm intolerant of murderers. I don't support dictators. I guess we'll just have to call it even.
    I support neither murderers nor dictators.

    Okay, so you agree that following your morals is more important than the consequences. If the consequences were physical harm to someone but you still were able to follow the "universal truth", then that's what really matters to you, right?
    Technically, yes. In practice... In practice, there would be A LOT of other issues to consider, to say the least.

  8. #88
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Morals are RELATIVE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    morals are a simplified approach to what is logical for our species. since it is simplified, any form of "morality" will not apply to everything. it doesnt make much sense to claim that morals relative to yourself are intrinsically better than morals relative to society, or anything, really. they're all overly-simplistic at the end of the day, but still necessary because most of society lacks the critical thinking required to decide what is really right and wrong in any given situation.
    Because I'm lazy...

    Purpose of faith and logic... my guess would be ways of making decisions based on incomplete sets of information. It's how life works... we're never given all the data. So we make do with what we have. Faith, a system of values, is nothing more than an empirically derived set of rules that are passed down over generations which seems to work for most scenarios. Where as logic, a system of steps and procedures also established in the past, is deemed efficient in drawing conclusions by evaluating a limited set of information.
    This is my take for the reason why some things seems absolutely "right" and other things seems absolutely "wrong".

    Why is killing another person wrong? Because we've been socially conditioned... and I dare say evolutionary/genetically promoted for survival... Humans survive by being in groups... therefore harmony between social groups (and not killing) is selected for. But what about if you change the situation?

    You have a psycho mass murder running around... Is it wrong to kill him? I DARE YOU TO SAY THAT IT'S WRONG TO KILL HIM! No sane person will go with that... So please tell me, how is morality not relative? It depends on the individual and it depends on the situation.

  9. #89
    Senior Member 6sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    In practice, there would be A LOT of other issues to consider, to say the least.
    Well that basically sums it up. Which is why I rarely talk about this stuff - because it really doesn't matter in the real world what one person or another thinks about morality. Anyway, good talking to you.
    No offense.

  10. #90
    Senior Member Hexis's Avatar
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    Sorry to disapoint you, im a moral relativist. Not a hardcore one, but I do not believe there is anything that is ultimately moraly wrong, only what society says there is. Which in my oponion is BS, I shall die before I allow the masses to empose upon me false beliefs that I do not personally believe in.
    SDMF

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