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  1. #71
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Logic is pretty universal, or should I say, the lack of it, lol.

    So what are you getting at Grayscale?
    `
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    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  2. #72
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    For me, what matters is how close to the universal truth (because I believe in such a thing) a set of morals is. Consequences should be monitored, but they should not determine the acceptability or lack thereof of a set of morals.
    I agree, kitty.

  3. #73
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    True. But something isn't immoral just because you, one human being, happen to disagree with it, either
    This is actually a pretty tricky one to answer.

    Some people are born with natural gifts, some are gifted physicists, others, gifted logicians.

    I know that I am "gifted" in morality, and I don't need anyone to validate this fact as it has been evident to, not only myself, but to other people as well, since I've been in preschool. So, er, well my thoughts on this subject, *especially* matter.


    *damn, I'm ballsy today!!*


    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #74
    Senior Member 6sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    This is an unneeded jibe. Nobody on this thread supported a pro-genocide position.
    But many of them are neutral on the issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    That's a position I understand. But I do not share it. Do you think it is wrong of me not to share it?

    Edit: actually, I share the second half of it, it's just my motivation that's different. And obviously, we don't agree on what "making this life as good as possible for ourselves and others" might entail
    I don't think it's wrong of you not to share those beliefs because your beliefs don't harm others. I do think it's wrong that you don't agree with preventing physical harm to others.
    No offense.

  5. #75
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    This thread has certainly been interesting reading.

    Some, explaining what their personal morals are, and insisting that everyone does (or should) share them, either inherently or because they are "right".

    Another, trying to explain thet morals are relevant only to the culture they are found in.

    Neither particularly likely to agree with the other view, or for that matter even consider the other.

    For what it's worth, I think all morals are dependent on upbringing, because you can not create a human without social conditioning. It'd be something else... they are all "taught".

  6. #76
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Some people are born with natural gifts, some are gifted physicists, others, gifted logicians.

    I know that I am "gifted" in morality, and I don't need anyone to validate this fact as it has been evident to, not only myself, but to other people as well, since I've been in preschool. So, er, well my thoughts on this subject, *especially* matter.
    My gift lies in the understanding of universal and personal mechanisms. Are you going to consider me an authority on this matter ?

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by 6sticks View Post
    But many of them are neutral on the issue.
    I haven't seen anything that would point to that. Care to elaborate or give examples?

    I do think it's wrong that you don't agree with preventing physical harm to others.
    Where did you get this idea? I do think it's important to try and prevent physical harm to others.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I think human beings should interact/interfere intelligently with nature.

    Nature doesn't give a shit about us.

    *We* give a shit about us.

    We should therefore act in ways that will benefit us as a species.
    nature is a collective we are a part of. do you see how what you're saying is the exact same thing any other species would "say" if they could talk?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    So what are you getting at Grayscale?
    what i am getting at is this: indications of "right" and "wrong" arent some mystic, inexplainable force, they are a general approach perpetuated by society and (most likely) genetics in what makes sense in the grand scheme of things... more specifically, our species. once one can come to accept that right and wrong are an extention of what's logical and not constructs in and of themselves, it follows that "morality" is relative right and wrong.

    this brings up 2 items of importance: most morals have survived because they work for the greater good, and so they actually are a good approach for the majority of the population. however, like any general approach, they are not perfect for everything, and those with solid critical thinking should favor what is logical in any situation even if it goes against conventional morals.

    this is important because a lot of people will cling to the concepts behind "morality" regardless of logic, when morality is a construct of logic. "killing another human is always wrong" would not apply to someone like hitler. thankfully, most people can figure that one out, but it's a simplistic example of my point.

  8. #78
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    nature is a collective we are a part of. do you see how what you're saying is the exact same thing any other species would "say" if they could talk?.
    Yeah, and your point? I comfortably draw the line at the species level, i.e. to me, human beings, ultimately matter more than other species.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #79
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Yeah, and your point? I comfortably draw the line at the species level, i.e. to me, human beings, ultimately matter more than other species.
    Which is a personal view, but why is it any more "morally right" than the views of those who treat nature (eg the life of a dolphin) as being as important and those of humanity?

  10. #80
    Senior Member 6sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    I haven't seen anything that would point to that. Care to elaborate or give examples?
    You yourself said you wouldn't lose any respect for someone who didn't think genocide was wrong.
    I happen to think that genocide is wrong too. But I can perfectly understand why some people would think otherwise, without losing any respect for them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Where did you get this idea? I do think it's important to try and prevent physical harm to others.
    You said adhering to the "universal truth" is what's important, regardless of the consequences. I consider the prevention of physical harm to be more important.
    For me, what matters is how close to the universal truth (because I believe in such a thing) a set of morals is. Consequences should be monitored, but they should not determine the acceptability or lack thereof of a set of morals.
    No offense.

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