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  1. #151
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Are you empathizing with me?

    Demonstrate your gift.
    No. I am not.

    Okay, first, let me hear you laugh.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  2. #152
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    My moral capacities are ultimately founded/guided by my ability to empathize.
    That's not exactly what I see in you.

    I see you *projecting* on others. Instead of asking them how they feel and then mirrorring that, you imagine how *you* would feel and then assume that they must feel the same. That's not true empathy IMO.

    If you were truly empathising with people from other societies, you would necessarily consider *their* morality as valid *for them*, since that morality is most often an integral part of why and how they suffer.

    Instead, what I see you doing is judging what their pain must be according to *your* morality, what would hurt *you*.

    In your *own* society, such a gift must indeed make you extremely empathetic. But it won't work anymore outside of it. Hence why you are so opposed to relative morality.

    By the way, as an ENFP with AuxFi, it's perfectly normal that you would see yourself as having an inner moral compass, and that you would associate this compass to caring for others. It's precisely what typology would predict. That doesn't mean all ENFPs have to be that way, but it's perfectly normal for any given ENFP to be that way.

    But there are 15 other types, you have to take that into consideration too. The way things are for you is not necessarily the way things are for others.

  3. #153
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    By the way, as an ENFP with AuxFi, it's perfectly normal that you would see yourself as having an inner moral compass, and that you would associate this compass to caring for others. It's precisely what typology would predict. That doesn't mean all ENFPs have to be that way, but it's perfectly normal for any given ENFP to be that way.

    But there are 15 other types, you have to take that into consideration too. The way things are for you is not necessarily the way things are for others.
    True, we can agree on this.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #154
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Sympathy and empathy are quite distinct
    yes, I know that. if you re-read my post you'll see that I was in fact making and indexing that distinction. I was saying that the simple fact of my empathizing with you does not guaruntee that I will also sympathize. Just because I can feel myself as though I were in your place does not mean that I will therefore agree with you and feel the same as you intellectually, and intellectually is where the majority of my decisions come from. So you can cry and make me cry with you as much as you like, but I'll ignore your emotions in my decision if I feel it's warranted just the same as I would ignore my own emotions. Just because your emotions become my emotions in the empathizing process, does not mean I will value them any the more or consider them any more valid than if they had been my own to begin with.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  5. #155
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    True, we can agree on this.
    You've just agreed with the concept of relative morality (or moral relativity? Sorry I'm getting my nouns and ajectives a bit mixed-up sometimes) then

  6. #156
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default Relativism - Benign and Malign

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Hence why you are so opposed to relative morality.
    Relativism is benign in a democratic, multi-cultural society.

    But when this society is under attack by a totalitarian, political religion, relativism then becomes malign.

    Victor.

  7. #157
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    yes, I know that. if you re-read my post you'll see that I was in fact making and indexing that distinction. I was saying that the simple fact of my empathizing with you does not guaruntee that I will also sympathize. Just because I can feel myself as though I were in your place does not mean that I will therefore agree with you and feel the same as you intellectually, and intellectually is where the majority of my decisions come from. So you can cry and make me cry with you as much as you like, but I'll ignore your emotions in my decision if I feel it's warranted just the same as I would ignore my own emotions. Just because your emotions become my emotions in the empathizing process, does not mean I will value them any the more or consider them any more valid than if they had been my own to begin with.
    And I agree with you too.

    Victor.

  8. #158
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Now that this thread is dying down a bit and it seem that all the moral relativists have had their say, I'd like to bring up some things that may be a little off topic.

    First of all I think this thread basically is an attempt to answer one of the four basic sets of questions the Postmodern world is asking. That set (2) is How should I live? Are there absolutes today? Should I expect someone else to accept my rules of conduct? What is right and wrong?

    I believe that there are absolutes. Aristotle believed it. Augustine believed it. Thomas Aquinas believed it. John Calvin believed it. Jonathan Edwards believed it. Everyone has their own mentors. Mine are different than yours, but no less brilliant.

    Secondly, and just for informational value and of interest there are several different theories of ethics discussed here. I'll list all 6 I know about and you can sort yourselves out.

    1. God decides the ethical facts.
    2. Society decides the ethical facts (cultural relativism or in its wider definition to mean the theory that basic judgements can be equally valid (meta-ethical relativism)
    3. The individual judging decides the ethical facts (appraiser relativism)
    4. The individual being judged decides the ethical facts (agent relativism)
    5. The ethical facts are objective and independent of authortiy (realism)
    6. There are no ethical facts (subjectivism) Though I find that cultural relativism or MR sometimes takes the form of sujectivist theory.
    Last edited by Journey; 03-27-2008 at 09:15 AM. Reason: can't spell relativist, lol

  9. #159
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    You've just agreed with the concept of relative morality (or moral relativity? Sorry I'm getting my nouns and ajectives a bit mixed-up sometimes) then
    Nope I didn't, reread what I quoted you on.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  10. #160
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Nope I didn't, reread what I quoted you on.
    You quoted this :

    The way things are for you is not necessarily the way things are for others

    If that isnt (moral) relativism I don't know what is

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