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  1. #131
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Natural law is not the same thing as "innate human rights". Innate human rights were not conceived until the formation of liberal natural law theory. Calling the natural law that Aristotle taught the same as the "innate human rights" that were conceived during the Enlightenment is about the same as saying the first wheel was an automobile. There has been quite a bit of modification and addition to the ideas, but nobody in ancient Greece would have suggested concepts like a "social contract".
    The wheel to the automobile?

    Innate human rights needn't rest on a social contract. Locke taught that the only reason we ought to enter into a social contract was because fallen individuals couldn't be trusted to obey the dictates of natural law--i.e., people enter into social contract not to create innate human rights, but to ensure that those rights are protected by good government.

    You might be right when you assert that the doctrine of 'innate human rights' was not expounded before the Enlightenment, but I'd argue that the resources were already there, just waiting to be discovered, and the challenges raised during the Enlightenment were just what was needed to push political theorizers to consider the implications of what had already been said.

    So, I wouldn't say it's the wheel to the automobile, but closer to the discovery of the internal combustion engine and the automobile.

  2. #132
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    The wheel to the automobile?

    Innate human rights needn't rest on a social contract. Locke taught that the only reason we ought to enter into a social contract was because fallen individuals couldn't be trusted to obey the dictates of natural law--i.e., people enter into social contract not to create innate human rights, but to ensure that those rights are protected by good government.
    I was only using a "social contract" as an example. I wasn't implying that it was necessary for "innate human rights" only arguing that such concepts would have been beyond the thinking of ancient Greeks.

    You might be right when you assert that the doctrine of 'innate human rights' was not expounded before the Enlightenment, but I'd argue that the resources were already there, just waiting to be discovered, and the challenges raised during the Enlightenment were just what was needed to push political theorizers to consider the implications of what had already been said.
    Assuming that it was, "waiting to be discovered" it was not a part of the thinking of the times, and thus ideas like slavery were not inherently in conflict with the conception of Natural Law in the pre-Enlightenment years. And that was my original point.

    So, I wouldn't say it's the wheel to the automobile, but closer to the discovery of the internal combustion engine and the automobile.
    I am inclined to disagree since those inventions were made in the same century and share the same components, whereas these philosophies were made in separate millenniums and much of Aristotle's conception of natural law were abandoned during the Enlightenment. However,I think I can compromise. I would say it is comparable to a horse drawn carriage to an automobile. The fundamental idea (common laws outside the jurisdiction of man) is the same, but the components (laws vs. rights) are entirely different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  3. #133
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I second this inscrutable look (of disbelief.)
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    thirded
    He's one of your jaded male F's who puts on a cynical, blunt front which fools most people until you upset him in some way without realizing it, and then you see how sensitive he is as he battles with himself to not show it... haha...

    Anyway, seriously, just something about the way you sorta state things, bluntly and stubbornly but without apparent aggression, partly indifferent to how it's winding people up and yet partly keenly aware of it and using it as leverage or ammunition... hard to describe but anyway it does remind me of him and he is definitely ENFP. It's not your opinions so much as the way you express them and put them across...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  4. #134
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    He's one of your jaded male F's who puts on a cynical, blunt front which fools most people until you upset him in some way without realizing it, and then you see how sensitive he is as he battles with himself to not show it... haha...

    Anyway, seriously, just something about the way you sorta state things, bluntly and stubbornly but without apparent aggression, partly indifferent to how it's winding people up and yet partly keenly aware of it and using it as leverage or ammunition... hard to describe but anyway it does remind me of him and he is definitely ENFP. It's not your opinions so much as the way you express them and put them across...
    The way opinions are expressed will typically pick up the extraverted function (which in an E is also the dominant one). So hooray for that!

    Oh... great avatar by the way... It doesn't mean much to many others on this forum, I suspect... because even if they know of the show, they probably don't know the slightly camp, brilliantly done, BBC team redubbing..

  5. #135
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    This is actually a pretty tricky one to answer.

    Some people are born with natural gifts, some are gifted physicists, others, gifted logicians.

    I know that I am "gifted" in morality, and I don't need anyone to validate this fact as it has been evident to, not only myself, but to other people as well, since I've been in preschool. So, er, well my thoughts on this subject, *especially* matter.


    *damn, I'm ballsy today!!*


    Do you see a distinction between the physicist and logician who's gift is validated by external, objective, measured systems and your gift in morality that is validated by yourself and those closely aligned in terms of culture and experience? To consider oneself superior in moral judgment is equivalent to considering other people as inferior in moral judgment. That suggests unequal treatment of the thinking/feeling of others. The morality of that could be called into question.That is a dangerous position to take. What is easy to forget is that it is natural for human beings to justify any ideas as "right". That right there is the foundation of relativism. It is thinking in the fashion you express here that is the very source of relativism - others who consider themselves gifted in moral judgment and come to different conclusions than you. Wouldn't it be more useful to attempt to find an external way to validate certain types of morality, rather than relying on a perceived gift? Find a way to measure the difference between moral and immoral acts that has a reference point in nature and is not derived from personal thinking and culture?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #136
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Darling *empathy* exists.

    My moral capacities are ultimately founded/guided by my ability to empathize.

    For some reason or another, I have *I'm hypothesizing* more mirror neurons than most people, a lot more.

    Teachers, and adults have commented on my *supreme* exhibition of empathy/morality since preschool.

    So, my dear just because we have yet to map/understand the roots of empathy, *does not* mean that it does not exist.

    Please, do some research on the topic.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #137
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Darling *empathy* exists.

    My moral capacities are ultimately founded/guided by my ability to empathize.

    For some reason or another, I have *I'm hypothesizing* more mirror neurons than most people, a lot more.

    Teachers, and adults have commented on my *supreme* exhibition of empathy/morality since preschool.

    So, my dear just because we have yet to map/understand the roots of empathy, *does not* mean that it does not exist.

    Please, do some research on the topic.
    I think you're missing the point. Sure, you're probably naturally way more able to empathise with people than I am. But the point is that your morals are a product of the society you've grown up in - you're mirroring what's around you. If you grew up in a different society, you would be mirroring something quite different.

  8. #138
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    No

    I have an internal mode of finding/feeling morals.

    I don't agree with a lot of my "society's" set of morals, that of my peers, my family members...

    Fuck society, and what society thinks is moralistic, society at large is often immoral in their collective beliefs.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #139
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Darling *empathy* exists.

    My moral capacities are ultimately founded/guided by my ability to empathize.

    For some reason or another, I have *I'm hypothesizing* more mirror neurons than most people, a lot more.

    Teachers, and adults have commented on my *supreme* exhibition of empathy/morality since preschool.

    So, my dear just because we have yet to map/understand the roots of empathy, *does not* mean that it does not exist.

    Please, do some research on the topic.
    Are you empathizing with me?

    Demonstrate your gift.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #140
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default The Captain's Mirror Neurons

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    I think you're missing the point. Sure, you're probably naturally way more able to empathise with people than I am. But the point is that your morals are a product of the society you've grown up in - you're mirroring what's around you. If you grew up in a different society, you would be mirroring something quite different.
    But think how important mirroring is.

    Babies and children depend on being accurately mirrored by their parents just to know who they are.

    And just as important, mirroring distinguishes us from other animals.

    Most animal groups are many individuals, sometimes acting together, but on an individual basis.

    But homo sapiens by mirroring can know what another is thinking.

    We take this to extremes as today I even know what Socrates was thinking two and a half thousand years ago.

    In fact homo sapiens is like one large animal - the largest animal on the planet - and so the most dominent.

    All due to mirroring.

    And the Captain's mirror neurons.

    Victor.

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