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  1. #91
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    I do think that there are things that are just plain wrong. I'm not that well-read on moral relativism.. what would that make me?

  2. #92
    Senior Member Hexis's Avatar
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    I couldnt explain it perfectly, try looking it up on: Wikipedia
    SDMF

  3. #93
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    You have a psycho mass murder running around... Is it wrong to kill him? I DARE YOU TO SAY THAT IT'S WRONG TO KILL HIM!
    If they insist it's wrong, have him aim at their kid

    And to make things even more interesting: he's killing people because of a non-self-imposed brain chemical imbalance that causes him to think that some people are in fact alien invaders intent on overtaking the Earth. Or something.

    Good luck figuring out what's right and what's wrong then... Especially in the split second you have left before he blows a hole in your kid's head...

  4. #94
    Senior Member nemo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    LOL

    nemo...

    my alter ego with a set of balls.

    Haha

    I guess I can be your alter ego, but I get to wear the cape.
    You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. - Jack London

  5. #95
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    I do think that there are things that are just plain wrong. I'm not that well-read on moral relativism.. what would that make me?
    What things do you think are plain wrong?

    The only things I know of with absolute right and wrong is mathematics... but that because we defined it to be that way... For everything else... it's either right or wrong depending on a certain set of conditions. To make things less complicated so that we poor humans can make decisions in time to react/survive, we make up general cases and base our rights and wrongs on that.

    You don't need to be well-read on this... I don't even know what the exact definition of the term means. It's just what you believe in... No right or wrong in beliefs. For that's what moral relativism implies. So what does that make you? Human. *gives Dana a Cheshire cat grin*

  6. #96
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    What specifically I find right and wrong is irrelevant.

  7. #97
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    I like the way LaVey worded it: "Do unto others as they do unto you."

  8. #98
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Eh, I'm probably going to regret replying to this. Wandering's POV is mostly closely aligned to mine. The 'absolute morality' idea kinda sickens me. I share a lot of those 'absolute moralities' but I'm very much aware that it's the result of my culture. If I was brought up in any other society or culture now, or in the past, I know that my personal morality would be very different to what I have now.

    It's part of the feeling connected to the past and now. 'Others' aren't alien - they're us, but with a different environment that moulded their brains in particular ways. In my opinion, you can't truly understand others until you at least suspend all the baggage you have from your own culture and try to picture what it would be like to be them through their eyes, not yours. Understanding that we're all human, all the same underneath, is part of being human. For me. (so sayeth the atheist moral relativist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It's possible to both acknowledge that an act violates your concept of morality, and recognize that it is accepted within another culture. Recognition is not approval.
    Exactly.

    (and I am amused at some level that everyone can somehow agree with this, even though they disagree with everyone else /end badly worded ramble)

  9. #99
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default Intuitive, Counter-Intuitive and again the Intuitive Environment

    All value systems are contained within an environment.

    And all environments are invisible.

    However over the last 200,000 years we have been contained within three environments.

    An intuitive environment, then a counter-intuitive environment and once again we are moving into an intuitive environment.

    In fact this environment we are in right now, the internet or the noosphere, is an intuitive environment.

    For instance, over most of the last 200,000 years we have leant to speak our language at home intuitively.

    But not so long ago the printing press gave rise to the dream of universal literacy.

    And almost no one learns to read and write intuitively at home rather the State provides Free, Compulsory and Secular Education.

    We are compelled by State law to leave our homes and go to special institutions with specially trained staff to learn to read and write.

    So we are compelled to learn to read and write counter-intuitively. But most importantly we learn to think counter-intuitively. And very soon we take this for granted and so we have the invisible, counter-intuitive environment.

    And the counter-intuitive environment has given rise to science, modern democracy and modern economics.

    Almost all of science is counter-intuitive. For instance we know intuitively that the sun goes round the earth but science tells us counter-intuitively that the earth goes round the sun.

    For the best part of 200,000 years we could see that the sun went round the earth - we only had to look - it was intuitive.

    And modern democracy is counter-intuitive because the defining trait of modern democracy is the limitation of power (see the Constitution), while the intuitive aim of any politician is to maximise their power.

    And modern economics is counter-intuitive as who would have guessed, before Adam Smith, that private greed creates public prosperity.

    And of course Biology and Physics are counter-intuitive like most of modern life, even some of modern art is counter-intuitive.

    In short, modern life is based on literacy and the counter-intuitive environment it creates.

    But something is afoot, at home we learn to use the telephone, the television and now the internet intuitively. We are no longer compelled by the State to leave our intuitive homes and go to a special institution to learn how to use the telephone or the television or the internet.

    So once again we are returning to an intuitive environment like the one we are in right now.

    And naturally you object and say, but look, we are writing, but I, for instance, am moving away from writing. I have joined www.seesmic.com and I am having conversations in video - there is no need for me to write anymore.

    So for most of the last 200,000 years we have lived in an intuitive environment and over about the last 200 years we have lived in a counter-intuitive environment and now, just now, we are moving into an intuitive environment once again.

    And because we are half way between a counter-intuitive environment and the new intuitive environment, we quite naturally can't make up our minds. And it is this uncertainty that gives rise to Relativism - after all, things look relative.

    And they only look relative because our environment is changing.

    But as you know, all environments are invisible and now our present enviroment is becoming visible - so what will be our new invisible environment - I don't know.

    But my guess is Presence.

    Victor.

  10. #100
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    Eh, I'm probably going to regret replying to this. Wandering's POV is mostly closely aligned to mine. The 'absolute morality' idea kinda sickens me. I share a lot of those 'absolute moralities' but I'm very much aware that it's the result of my culture. If I was brought up in any other society or culture now, or in the past, I know that my personal morality would be very different to what I have now.

    It's part of the feeling connected to the past and now. 'Others' aren't alien - they're us, but with a different environment that moulded their brains in particular ways. In my opinion, you can't truly understand others until you at least suspend all the baggage you have from your own culture and try to picture what it would be like to be them through their eyes, not yours. Understanding that we're all human, all the same underneath, is part of being human. For me. (so sayeth the atheist moral relativist)



    Exactly.

    (and I am amused at some level that everyone can somehow agree with this, even though they disagree with everyone else /end badly worded ramble)
    Nah, not badly worded at all, quite a helpful ramble. This is exactly how I feel. The difficulty in discussing all of this is that some people want a "why morals at all" conversation, and others will see this as an attack on their personal morals. To me it seems self evident that morals are a result of our upbringing and social moulding!

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