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  1. #1
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Default How to: Build a relative moral framework!

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    aelan, is it calmness/inner stillness that you're looking for? Or is it more kinda an inner framework of values? If it's the latter, I'd be way interested in replies. I deliberately ripped my old values to shreds a few years back (they weren't mine and most of them were unhealthy and icky).

    So, I feel a bit adrift, like I'm waiting for clarity (even though I live internally, not externally). I guess um, I don't have any answers but if others do, I'd be way interested in hearing them. I'm kinda being objective about my values now (using Ti to build them from scratch), but I don't necessarily feel them as such, and I kinda get bogged down in defining them precisely, d'oh.
    The trouble I have with building value systems is that I never have an anchoring point to start from. If you accept and embrace moral relativity, it's hard to take your value system seriously, even if you did build a personal, subjective system. Once you decide on a good anchoring point, though, you can start to make headway; otherwise, you're just building on quicksand.

    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    *lol*. That pink waving thing makes me nervous. I had asked about Fi as I wanted to know how to develop to become an XXXX simply. I still don't think I'm flexible enough. I was wondering if the lack of it was due to a lack of inner sense of what is important (that was Fi to me simply). Or does an inner sense prevent flex?

    - I keep a dancer's posture all day.

    - But I tend to hop/skip/bounce when I walk. Work environment not good for calmness. You're right that too many things have stolen my peace of mind, or perhaps I have let them.
    So you believe that you lack an inner sense of what's important? Can you elaborate more? (WITHOUT REFERRING TO MBTI!)

  2. #2
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    aelan, is it calmness/inner stillness that you're looking for? Or is it more kinda an inner framework of values? If it's the latter, I'd be way interested in replies. I deliberately ripped my old values to shreds a few years back (they weren't mine and most of them were unhealthy and icky).

    So, I feel a bit adrift, like I'm waiting for clarity (even though I live internally, not externally). I guess um, I don't have any answers but if others do, I'd be way interested in hearing them. I'm kinda being objective about my values now (using Ti to build them from scratch), but I don't necessarily feel them as such, and I kinda get bogged down in defining them precisely, d'oh.
    The trouble I have with building value systems is that I never have an anchoring point to start from. If you accept and embrace moral relativity, it's hard to take your value system seriously, even if you did build a personal, subjective system. Once you decide on a good anchoring point, though, you can start to make headway; otherwise, you're just building on quicksand.

    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    *lol*. That pink waving thing makes me nervous. I had asked about Fi as I wanted to know how to develop to become an XXXX simply. I still don't think I'm flexible enough. I was wondering if the lack of it was due to a lack of inner sense of what is important (that was Fi to me simply). Or does an inner sense prevent flex?

    - I keep a dancer's posture all day.

    - But I tend to hop/skip/bounce when I walk. Work environment not good for calmness. You're right that too many things have stolen my peace of mind, or perhaps I have let them.
    So you believe that you lack an inner sense of what's important? Can you elaborate more? (WITHOUT REFERRING TO MBTI!)

  3. #3
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    The trouble I have with building value systems is that I never have an anchoring point to start from. If you accept and embrace moral relativity, it's hard to take your value system seriously, even if you did build a personal, subjective system. Once you decide on a good anchoring point, though, you can start to make headway; otherwise, you're just building on quicksand.
    Yeah, moral relativity is definitely something I've embraced - it just seems the logical conclusion of looking at everything (past and present) as a whole.

    The anchoring point eludes me. Quicksand is a good analogy. But I've been talking with someone who also ripped their values apart a number of years ago, and where I am at the moment just seems to be part of the process.

    I think there's something there underneath. I've found a few things, but there's a sense that it's temporary, everything is up for grabs. In some ways it's quite freeing - I'm not locked into anything, but at the same time, there isn't clarity on a path forward. *shrug* But perhaps fluidity and change can become an anchor point. I'll wait and see I guess.

  4. #4
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    Yeah, moral relativity is definitely something I've embraced - it just seems the logical conclusion of looking at everything (past and present) as a whole.

    The anchoring point eludes me. Quicksand is a good analogy. But I've been talking with someone who also ripped their values apart a number of years ago, and where I am at the moment just seems to be part of the process.

    I think there's something there underneath. I've found a few things, but there's a sense that it's temporary, everything is up for grabs. In some ways it's quite freeing - I'm not locked into anything, but at the same time, there isn't clarity on a path forward. *shrug* But perhaps fluidity and change can become an anchor point. I'll wait and see I guess.
    I share your intuition about there being something there. I'm not sure what, either. Maybe it's something that transcends value systems entirely but only looks like a value system to outsiders ...like us.

  5. #5
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    Yeah, moral relativity is definitely something I've embraced - it just seems the logical conclusion of looking at everything (past and present) as a whole.

    The anchoring point eludes me. Quicksand is a good analogy. But I've been talking with someone who also ripped their values apart a number of years ago, and where I am at the moment just seems to be part of the process.

    I think there's something there underneath. I've found a few things, but there's a sense that it's temporary, everything is up for grabs. In some ways it's quite freeing - I'm not locked into anything, but at the same time, there isn't clarity on a path forward. *shrug* But perhaps fluidity and change can become an anchor point. I'll wait and see I guess.
    I share your intuition about there being something there. I'm not sure what, either. Maybe it's something that transcends value systems entirely but only looks like a value system to outsiders ...like us.

  6. #6
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Last edited by ThatsWhatHeSaid; 03-25-2008 at 04:33 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I share your intuition about there being something there. I'm not sure what, either. Maybe it's something that transcends value systems entirely but only looks like a value system to outsiders ...like us.
    I had to think about this for a while.

    The something there is more of a personal thing, not really a universal something. More that I'm getting glimpses of the core me, the bits that survived the ripping apart of things. Maybe. Um.

  8. #8
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    Fi person to comment..... *bleats* How do they do it... I've always found greater comfort in the clear lines of T, but somehow, that doesn't work nowadays...

  9. #9
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Question from Fe mouse...
    How is morality NOT relative?

    In saying to build a moral framework, you're automatically working in the realm of relatives. Values differs from person to person... So is Ti having difficulties understanding how you can compare values?

    Mouse use the following...

    Values... I believe that people should be allowed to believe in whatever they want, so long that they do not try to force their beliefs onto other people, nor do things/cause a cascade of event that affects other people in ways that violate other people's beliefs.

    To take an extreme example... Killing somebody is okay so long as that it passes both your personal judgments and that of the person you're about to kill... as well as anybody else directly involved in this business. People should come to a decision by themselves... Explicit informed consent... that is making a decision given that you know all the possible consequences of the action, physically and emotionally to everybody. Knowing all view points. Clearly life isn't that clear cut... you'll get people who can't make their own decisions very well... nor is it possible to know every single darn point of view. But I work with an approximation of that.

    Then there's the consistency in values... you must have that... otherwise you can't use the above system. People who don't believe/act in ways consistent to what they say they believe in aren't treated very well by me. That is to say I'll go and evaluate them using the standards I placed on myself... and those are far more stringent the ones based on the above system. But hey... they asked for it...

  10. #10
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    The trouble I have with building value systems is that I never have an anchoring point to start from. If you accept and embrace moral relativity, it's hard to take your value system seriously, even if you did build a personal, subjective system. Once you decide on a good anchoring point, though, you can start to make headway; otherwise, you're just building on quicksand.
    The quicksand is a problem only because you are looking for a firm foundation. That is a decision which you have made, to look for a firm foundation, not something which is inherent to logic or rationality. It is a consequence of philosophical presuppositions, implicit in the discussion, assumptions which are not beyond error, and indeed are erroneous. There is no need for a firm foundation, or justification, such a pursuit is a fools errand, and rationality is stronger without it as a goal.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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