User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 42

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    xxxx
    Enneagram
    ?
    Socionics
    ?
    Posts
    116

    Default Is a discussion on the value of Religion from a strictly financial POV allowed?

    I understand that Religion is a sensitive issue so delete this thread if it becomes offensive in anyway.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    xxxx
    Enneagram
    ?
    Socionics
    ?
    Posts
    116

    Default

    I came across a televised church sermon and remembered as a kid I had went to a church that was a branch of a bigger church. In fact their were branches of this church all over the country and they would have annual meetings were all these churches would come together for three days and I swear to you these pastor's were businessman. And in my opinion a church is a business. Pastors depend on the money it's making in order to provide for him and his family. And some of these pastors become very successful in this field. And whats the start up cost of a church? A few hundred fliers, some door to door advertising and the rental cost of some folding chairs. Even if the church got to big for you to run on your own that wouldn't be a problem because the people that you make your money off of are also willing to work for free. So if you think about it a church is a business where the customer not only pays for you building but they run it to. They paid for everything and do most of the work it takes to maintain it all well supporting you and you family. And the 2 -3 days you show up there you get treated like a star and collect your money. Not a bad deal but I couldnt do it.

  3. #3
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Yes, some churches are in the business of making money. Some of these televangelists prey on people's fears and weaknesses and convince them to fork over their cash, the whole prosperity gospel thing, trying to get little old ladies to hand over their entire social security check.

    Some churches are scams.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobble View Post
    I came across a televised church sermon and remembered as a kid I had went to a church that was a branch of a bigger church. In fact their were branches of this church all over the country and they would have annual meetings were all these churches would come together for three days and I swear to you these pastor's were businessman. And in my opinion a church is a business. Pastors depend on the money it's making in order to provide for him and his family. And some of these pastors become very successful in this field. And whats the start up cost of a church? A few hundred fliers, some door to door advertising and the rental cost of some folding chairs. Even if the church got to big for you to run on your own that wouldn't be a problem because the people that you make your money off of are also willing to work for free. So if you think about it a church is a business where the customer not only pays for you building but they run it to. They paid for everything and do most of the work it takes to maintain it all well supporting you and you family. And the 2 -3 days you show up there you get treated like a star and collect your money. Not a bad deal but I couldnt do it.
    Interesting evaluation, can I ask, in relation to the part of your post which I've bolded can I ask you why you couldnt?

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    xxxx
    Enneagram
    ?
    Socionics
    ?
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes, some churches are in the business of making money. Some of these televangelists prey on people's fears and weaknesses and convince them to fork over their cash, the whole prosperity gospel thing, trying to get little old ladies to hand over their entire social security check.

    Some churches are scams.
    Ok but even good churches with honest pastors are being used to make a living off of. This is a career choose that he made and it's how he makes a living. He has to make enough money to not only pay the churches bill but his bills too. Then there's groceries, clothes, school supplies, haircuts and everything else. So even a good pastor is making a living off of Religion. It's not only a calling it's a career. So what would be the proper business ethics be for a church I wonder? Don't forgot the free labor. Ah the perks.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobble View Post
    Ok but even good churches with honest pastors are being used to make a living off of. This is a career choose that he made and it's how he makes a living. He has to make enough money to not only pay the churches bill but his bills too. Then there's groceries, clothes, school supplies, haircuts and everything else. So even a good pastor is making a living off of Religion. It's not only a calling it's a career. So what would be the proper business ethics be for a church I wonder? Don't forgot the free labor. Ah the perks.
    What is the answer? Would I be correct in suggesting that you believe there are contradictions here? If I am right what do you consider them to be?

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    470

    Default

    Everything is up for discussion, religion has no special priveledges when it comes to discussion or critisisme

  8. #8
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    I don't care if you want to describe a framework where religion is driven by capitalist concerns.

    Hell, it is often a big-enough, OBVIOUS problem within particular congregations, who have to balance energy spent on generating funds for philanthropic work and paying pastoral staff to implement services with an acceptance of a "normal' standard of living and not being led around by money / becoming slaves to "what they could accomplish if they just generated more cash." It is not a lot different than government balancing services vs good fiscal practice, or other philathropies. (There's a reason Jesus is quoted as saying, "You can't serve God *and* Mammon AKA "money.")

    And of course you will always get people who will try to drive prosperity gospels and skim cash off the top for personal benefit, or even actively try to fleece people.... something that occurs secularly as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tantive View Post
    Everything is up for discussion, religion has no special priveledges when it comes to discussion or critisisme
    Yeah, although I think it would be a more productive conversation if we were dutiful enough to examine legitimate issues from both inside and outside religion, rather than just making it one more lazy bitch session about how corrupt and greedy some churches have been. The latter is not just boorish but also incomplete.

    I'll say, after my involvement in local church leadership for a number of years, it's not like it's not a HUGE topic... so many discussions involve around how to balance the need for money vs not being subservient to it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #9
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobble View Post
    Ok but even good churches with honest pastors are being used to make a living off of. This is a career choose that he made and it's how he makes a living. He has to make enough money to not only pay the churches bill but his bills too. Then there's groceries, clothes, school supplies, haircuts and everything else. So even a good pastor is making a living off of Religion. It's not only a calling it's a career. So what would be the proper business ethics be for a church I wonder? Don't forgot the free labor. Ah the perks.
    Right.

    The "big name" pastors get all the press, with their mega-churches and huge buildings/campuses and political clout, but for every one of those guys, there's a hundred (or more!) pastors who basically end up being on call 24/7 for any request from parishioners (however necessary and/OR inane), who is expected to play a particular role at all times, who has to be a figurehead in the daily management of the church while also spending her time continuing her studies, writing sermons, running small groups and prayer sessions, being emotionally available... and who likely isn't getting compensated financially for her time or educational background.

    Also, pastors who want to speak their mind and stay true to the personal values are really in a bind far more than those who work secular jobs; any time he challenges his congregration and/or the prevailing mindset, he runs the risk of losing his congregation. This is probably an extreme case (and maybe not the best, since some might not agree with the pastor anyway), but the pastor who counseled and baptized Jeffrey Dahmer and believed his conversion was authentic immediately took a hit in his congregation... half the people left within a very short period of time. This killed his salary as well as what the congregation could do in the community.

    But I've seen it occur over less controversial matters; something gets changed that some people were attached to, and the congregation leaves. And when your salary is based on donations (essentially), your income takes a huge hit.

    Honestly, the majority of people who are in pastoral staff are there because they believe in what they are doing. The vast majority do not get rich, and a significant number are trying hard to just make ends meet. When the culture's economy sours, also, one of the first things to dry up is charitable giving.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    xxxx
    Enneagram
    ?
    Socionics
    ?
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Interesting evaluation, can I ask, in relation to the part of your post which I've bolded can I ask you why you couldnt?
    Blind faith.

    See because i could deal with taking there money in order to support me and my family. And I'd be ok with some of them volunteering there time to help maintain and run the church because I would know that God is changing their life's through me somehow and it is important that I remain open and available for anything God might need me for. Its a blessing that he choose me. But he didn't. These people are changing their own lives. It's not me. And its all do to blind faith. It allows them to be 100% without a single doubt in their mind beleave that their life is going to get better and telling yourself that your life is going to get better and beleaving it that strongly will make it happen. And knowing that I need them but they don't need me will make it impossible for me to be ok with using them that way. So blind faith would be why.

Similar Threads

  1. Bertrand Russell on the value of philosophy
    By ygolo in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-12-2015, 03:15 AM
  2. The value of random on-line personality tests
    By Ilah in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-26-2008, 08:33 PM
  3. Informal Discussion on the Philosophy of Science
    By ygolo in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-24-2008, 12:23 PM
  4. hello, all...this is another INFP in the corner of his world
    By niki in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-18-2007, 06:32 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO