Is a discussion on the value of Religion from a strictly financial POV allowed?

[Bobble]

I understand that Religion is a sensitive issue so delete this thread if it becomes offensive in anyway.

 

[Bobble]

I came across a televised church sermon and remembered as a kid I had went to a church that was a branch of a bigger church. In fact their were branches of this church all over the country and they would have annual meetings were all these churches would come together for three days and I swear to you these pastor's were businessman. And in my opinion a church is a business. Pastors depend on the money it's making in order to provide for him and his family. And some of these pastors become very successful in this field. And whats the start up cost of a church? A few hundred fliers, some door to door advertising and the rental cost of some folding chairs. Even if the church got to big for you to run on your own that wouldn't be a problem because the people that you make your money off of are also willing to work for free. So if you think about it a church is a business where the customer not only pays for you building but they run it to. They paid for everything and do most of the work it takes to maintain it all well supporting you and you family. And the 2 -3 days you show up there you get treated like a star and collect your money. Not a bad deal but I couldnt do it.

 

[Thalassa]

Yes, some churches are in the business of making money. Some of these televangelists prey on people's fears and weaknesses and convince them to fork over their cash, the whole prosperity gospel thing, trying to get little old ladies to hand over their entire social security check.

Some churches are scams.

 

[Lark]

I came across a televised church sermon and remembered as a kid I had went to a church that was a branch of a bigger church. In fact their were branches of this church all over the country and they would have annual meetings were all these churches would come together for three days and I swear to you these pastor's were businessman. And in my opinion a church is a business. Pastors depend on the money it's making in order to provide for him and his family. And some of these pastors become very successful in this field. And whats the start up cost of a church? A few hundred fliers, some door to door advertising and the rental cost of some folding chairs. Even if the church got to big for you to run on your own that wouldn't be a problem because the people that you make your money off of are also willing to work for free. So if you think about it a church is a business where the customer not only pays for you building but they run it to. They paid for everything and do most of the work it takes to maintain it all well supporting you and you family. And the 2 -3 days you show up there you get treated like a star and collect your money. Not a bad deal but I couldnt do it.

Interesting evaluation, can I ask, in relation to the part of your post which I've bolded can I ask you why you couldnt?

 

[Bobble]

Yes, some churches are in the business of making money. Some of these televangelists prey on people's fears and weaknesses and convince them to fork over their cash, the whole prosperity gospel thing, trying to get little old ladies to hand over their entire social security check.

Some churches are scams.

Ok but even good churches with honest pastors are being used to make a living off of. This is a career choose that he made and it's how he makes a living. He has to make enough money to not only pay the churches bill but his bills too. Then there's groceries, clothes, school supplies, haircuts and everything else. So even a good pastor is making a living off of Religion. It's not only a calling it's a career. So what would be the proper business ethics be for a church I wonder? Don't forgot the free labor. Ah the perks.

 

[Lark]

Ok but even good churches with honest pastors are being used to make a living off of. This is a career choose that he made and it's how he makes a living. He has to make enough money to not only pay the churches bill but his bills too. Then there's groceries, clothes, school supplies, haircuts and everything else. So even a good pastor is making a living off of Religion. It's not only a calling it's a career. So what would be the proper business ethics be for a church I wonder? Don't forgot the free labor. Ah the perks.

What is the answer? Would I be correct in suggesting that you believe there are contradictions here? If I am right what do you consider them to be?

 

[Tantive]

Everything is up for discussion, religion has no special priveledges when it comes to discussion or critisisme

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't care if you want to describe a framework where religion is driven by capitalist concerns.

Hell, it is often a big-enough, OBVIOUS problem within particular congregations, who have to balance energy spent on generating funds for philanthropic work and paying pastoral staff to implement services with an acceptance of a "normal' standard of living and not being led around by money / becoming slaves to "what they could accomplish if they just generated more cash." It is not a lot different than government balancing services vs good fiscal practice, or other philathropies. (There's a reason Jesus is quoted as saying, "You can't serve God *and* Mammon AKA "money.")

And of course you will always get people who will try to drive prosperity gospels and skim cash off the top for personal benefit, or even actively try to fleece people.... something that occurs secularly as well.

Everything is up for discussion, religion has no special priveledges when it comes to discussion or critisisme

Yeah, although I think it would be a more productive conversation if we were dutiful enough to examine legitimate issues from both inside and outside religion, rather than just making it one more lazy bitch session about how corrupt and greedy some churches have been. The latter is not just boorish but also incomplete.

I'll say, after my involvement in local church leadership for a number of years, it's not like it's not a HUGE topic... so many discussions involve around how to balance the need for money vs not being subservient to it.

 

[Totenkindly]

Ok but even good churches with honest pastors are being used to make a living off of. This is a career choose that he made and it's how he makes a living. He has to make enough money to not only pay the churches bill but his bills too. Then there's groceries, clothes, school supplies, haircuts and everything else. So even a good pastor is making a living off of Religion. It's not only a calling it's a career. So what would be the proper business ethics be for a church I wonder? Don't forgot the free labor. Ah the perks.

Right.

The "big name" pastors get all the press, with their mega-churches and huge buildings/campuses and political clout, but for every one of those guys, there's a hundred (or more!) pastors who basically end up being on call 24/7 for any request from parishioners (however necessary and/OR inane), who is expected to play a particular role at all times, who has to be a figurehead in the daily management of the church while also spending her time continuing her studies, writing sermons, running small groups and prayer sessions, being emotionally available... and who likely isn't getting compensated financially for her time or educational background.

Also, pastors who want to speak their mind and stay true to the personal values are really in a bind far more than those who work secular jobs; any time he challenges his congregration and/or the prevailing mindset, he runs the risk of losing his congregation. This is probably an extreme case (and maybe not the best, since some might not agree with the pastor anyway), but the pastor who counseled and baptized Jeffrey Dahmer and believed his conversion was authentic immediately took a hit in his congregation... half the people left within a very short period of time. This killed his salary as well as what the congregation could do in the community.

But I've seen it occur over less controversial matters; something gets changed that some people were attached to, and the congregation leaves. And when your salary is based on donations (essentially), your income takes a huge hit.

Honestly, the majority of people who are in pastoral staff are there because they believe in what they are doing. The vast majority do not get rich, and a significant number are trying hard to just make ends meet. When the culture's economy sours, also, one of the first things to dry up is charitable giving.

 

[Bobble]

Interesting evaluation, can I ask, in relation to the part of your post which I've bolded can I ask you why you couldnt?

Blind faith.

See because i could deal with taking there money in order to support me and my family. And I'd be ok with some of them volunteering there time to help maintain and run the church because I would know that God is changing their life's through me somehow and it is important that I remain open and available for anything God might need me for. Its a blessing that he choose me. But he didn't. These people are changing their own lives. It's not me. And its all do to blind faith. It allows them to be 100% without a single doubt in their mind beleave that their life is going to get better and telling yourself that your life is going to get better and beleaving it that strongly will make it happen. And knowing that I need them but they don't need me will make it impossible for me to be ok with using them that way. So blind faith would be why.

 

[Totenkindly]

Its a blessing that he choose me. But he didn't. These people are changing their own lives. It's not me. And its all do to blind faith. It allows them to be 100% without a single doubt in their mind beleave that their life is going to get better and telling yourself that your life is going to get better and beleaving it that strongly will make it happen. And knowing that I need them but they don't need me will make it impossible for me to be ok with using them that way. So blind faith is why.

That would make sense, then.

I guess it would be different for those who truly believe that God has picked and is using them to accomplish something important in the lives of others. Then it becomes a sacrificial calling (except for the narcissists, who start "taking their due").

 

[Lark]

Blind faith.

See because i could deal with taking there money in order to support me and my family. And I'd be ok with some of them volunteering there time to help maintain and run the church because I would know that God is changing their life's through me somehow and it is important that I remain open and available for anything God might need me for. Its a blessing that he choose me. But he didn't. These people are changing their own lives. It's not me. And its all do to blind faith. It allows them to be 100% without a single doubt in their mind beleave that their life is going to get better and telling yourself that your life is going to get better and beleaving it that strongly will make it happen. And knowing that I need them but they don't need me will make it impossible for me to be ok with using them that way. So blind faith would be why.

I'm unsure what precisely is meant by blind faith, it would seem from what you said that you could be a calculating individual or charalatan and profit from being a preacher anyway, do you believe that blind faith is a necessary qualification for a preacher?

 

[Bobble]

I'm unsure what precisely is meant by blind faith, it would seem from what you said that you could be a calculating individual or charalatan and profit from being a preacher anyway, do you believe that blind faith is a necessary qualification for a preacher?

No but if becoming a preacher was a business decision and not a decision based my religious beliefs or something I felt god wanted me to do then I wouldnt fill comfortable with myself. But on the other hand if I had found religion and felt that god had wanted me to become a preacher and dedicate my life to helping people then I wouldn't feel bad about accepting donations or profiting off the church through fundraisers and rallies because it would allow me to continue to do god's work.

 

[Lark]

No but if becoming a preacher was a business decision and not a decision based my religious beliefs or something I felt god wanted me to do then I wouldnt fill comfortable with myself. But on the other hand if I had found religion and felt that god had wanted me to become a preacher and dedicate my life to helping people then I wouldn't feel bad about accepting donations or profiting off the church through fundraisers and rallies because it would allow me to continue to do god's work.

Oh right, I thought you were suggesting that religion was a racket but you couldnt get a piece of that action since you could do a good enough impression of religious fervour or blind faith to be convincing to members of the congregation donating money, time and labour. Cheers for clearing that up

 

[Beorn]

No but if becoming a preacher was a business decision and not a decision based my religious beliefs or something I felt god wanted me to do then I wouldnt fill comfortable with myself. But on the other hand if I had found religion and felt that god had wanted me to become a preacher and dedicate my life to helping people then I wouldn't feel bad about accepting donations or profiting off the church through fundraisers and rallies because it would allow me to continue to do god's work.

Would you do it if you also got awesome sith lord powers?

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydCVAff68oA&feature=related"]Benny Hinn[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Bobble]

Oh right, I thought you were suggesting that religion was a racket but you couldnt get a piece of that action since you could do a good enough impression of religious fervour or blind faith to be convincing to members of the congregation donating money, time and labour. Cheers for clearing that up

 

[Bobble]

Would you do it if you also got awesome sith lord powers?

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydCVAff68oA&feature=related"]Benny Hinn[/YOUTUBE]

God should of never gave him that. B-Hinny's old school though. You see that thunder bolt shit. Yah, that's all him. He always had that. He was gonna be an X-man but Congregation pays better.

 

[Bobble]

That would make sense, then.

I guess it would be different for those who truly believe that God has picked and is using them to accomplish something important in the lives of others. Then it becomes a sacrificial calling (except for the narcissists, who start "taking their due").

Even these guys though, why cant they work. Preachers never work. Why is that? I was in so many different churches growing up. Huge ones, small ones, one with people going crazy like that. Even like the small little church with like 45-50 people. Are they really that busy? Whats a normal week for them, anyone know?

 

[Totenkindly]

Even these guys though, why cant they work. Preachers never work. Why is that? I was in so many different churches growing up. Huge ones, small ones, one with people going crazy like that. Even like the small little church with like 45-50 people. Are they really that busy? Whats a normal week for them, anyone know?

Have you really bothered to talk to a number of different pastors?

Some pastors DO have to work another job to make ends meet, which means they have less time for their church. So they are effectively working two jobs. Most normal people have trouble working two jobs without falling into exhaustion and still having time for the family.

And, as I said in an earlier post, being a pastor is not a 40-hour-week job. It is more like a 60, or 80 hour a week job, and you can't even not answer the phone unless you get a system in place where other people intercept the calls. (Which means either volunteers or more paid staff.) People will not long support a pastor who isn't doing what they think he should be doing. It's like all the problems with politics, except the pastors are directly financially dependent upon the constituents, so even when they have legitimate needs that they really should honor in their personal lives, it's very easy for them to get burned when an issue goes political.

People always have problems, and they seem to always expect the pastor to step in and deal with their problems -- either to give advice, or visit sick people, or run meetings, or give sermons, or practice music to stay at the top of their worship-leading game. This is changing somewhat with the flexier lifestyles of Gen X / Gen Y and younger, but especially with the Boomer hierarchy style of leadership, the pastor was expected to do everything.

They are also expected to keep up with their studies (of the Bible, or org management, or whatever else they're expected to do). Some of them are continuing to take graduate level classes long after entering the career.

And then what of the pastor's own family? It's not uncommon for pastors' kids to feel neglected if their mom or dad was always out helping other peopel with their problems. It's really hard to stake out time for oneself and one's own family unless the congregation is supportive of that and is willing to pick up the slack.

Like I said, I was in lay leadership for ten years, have been in the church all my life, and worked closely with pastorship. More than a few of my closer friends are/were pastors. This isn't rocket science. Go talk to some pastors of different ages and from different denominations. You'll probably get some variety there, but I think the last answer you'll get is that it's some cushy job where you soak up cash while not doing anything. If that's your view, then you should stop using very top 1% megachurch pastors as your litmus test. Those guys are the exception.

 

[onemoretime]

Oh right, I thought you were suggesting that religion was a racket but you couldnt get a piece of that action since you could do a good enough impression of religious fervour or blind faith to be convincing to members of the congregation donating money, time and labour. Cheers for clearing that up

Say what you want to about the Catholic priesthood - at least those tithes go to the Church organization as a whole.