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  1. #81
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyk View Post
    Lying is a cowardly act and I don't like it at all. Morality is a spectrum though. In the example of the axe-murderer at the door, yes, I would lie, because the amount of immorality that would come from lying is WAAAAYY less than allowing your family to die. I don't lie unless it is absolutely unavoidable.
    What about innocent lies? People who don't know that they are lying.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Xyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
    What about innocent lies? People who don't know that they are lying.
    Lies are intentional by their nature. If they don't know it, then they're just mistaken. That's not immoral.

  3. #83
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyk View Post
    Lies are intentional by their nature. If they don't know it, then they're just mistaken. That's not immoral.
    Hmm. See then, I have this concept of what someone perceives as a lie. What if someone is killed for telling the truth, but it was just seen as a lie? Isn't the world so messed up. You call a lie immoral and someone is killed for doing something moral. It's really tricky when people discuss the absolute yes and no of a lie or truth.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Xyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
    Hmm. See then, I have this concept of what someone perceives as a lie. What if someone is killed for telling the truth, but it was just seen as a lie? Isn't the world so messed up. You call a lie immoral and someone is killed for doing something moral. It's really tricky when people discuss the absolute yes and no of a lie or truth.
    I don't really understand. Can you give an example of a time when a true statement could be perceived as a lie? I mean, say a peasant sees (incorrectly) what he thinks is the king in bed with a non-queen woman and spreads the word. He's not lying, because he's not doing anything maliciously, but of course, he will be killed. I mean something either happens or it doesn't, right?

  5. #85
    Resident Apple Hoarder Kriash's Avatar
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    I try and not lie, but I still do it from time to time, I know I shouldn't.
    Most of the lies I tell are to protect someone's feelings, and the ones that aren't are lies I've told about myself after avoidance about the particular topics failed.

  6. #86
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyk View Post
    I don't really understand. Can you give an example of a time when a true statement could be perceived as a lie? I mean, say a peasant sees (incorrectly) what he thinks is the king in bed with a non-queen woman and spreads the word. He's not lying, because he's not doing anything maliciously, but of course, he will be killed. I mean something either happens or it doesn't, right?
    But jumping to that conclusion and falsely accusing of what you thought the truth was could be considered just as bad as lying then. I mean it happens with parents. A child will tell the truth, but the parent slaps them and tells them they are lying. I almost want to say that lying in this case shows that you can still tell the truth and be justified as a bad person through perception. Sure in a perfect society everyone would tell the truth and everyone would then believe it!

  7. #87
    Senior Member Xyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esidebill View Post
    But jumping to that conclusion and falsely accusing of what you thought the truth was could be considered just as bad as lying then. I mean it happens with parents. A child will tell the truth, but the parent slaps them and tells them they are lying. I almost want to say that lying in this case shows that you can still tell the truth and be justified as a bad person through perception. Sure in a perfect society everyone would tell the truth and everyone would then believe it!
    I still don't understand what you're getting at. A child sees her brother take a cookie from the cookie jar and tells their parents. The parents think the daughter is the one who took the cookie and is just lying to protect herself. They slap her and scold her for lying. Clearly, the parents are at fault for jumping to a conclusion, but nobody lied in this situation. The daughter did nothing wrong (except maybe tattling) and the parents aren't lying when they say "you are lying!" to the innocent little girl, they are just mistaken. Misunderstandings happen all the time, but can hardly be called dishonest.

  8. #88
    Senior Member esidebill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyk View Post
    I still don't understand what you're getting at. A child sees her brother take a cookie from the cookie jar and tells their parents. The parents think the daughter is the one who took the cookie and is just lying to protect herself. They slap her and scold her for lying. Clearly, the parents are at fault for jumping to a conclusion, but nobody lied in this situation. The daughter did nothing wrong (except maybe tattling) and the parents aren't lying when they say "you are lying!" to the innocent little girl, they are just mistaken. Misunderstandings happen all the time, but can hardly be called dishonest.
    See where lying is a pain in the ass? Many people say the actual people that lie are bad. I see lies as a whole as an annoying topic that humans seem to have created. So much hostility caused over this idea of lying.

  9. #89
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile George Washington cannot tell a lie.

    When our children tell their first lie, it is as important as taking their first step.

    For we are born without the ability to walk or lie, and just as walking is a developmental milestone, lying is also a developmental milestone.

    And the first lie leads on to a lifetime of lying - from the first causalty of war to lying to ourselves. But all the time we have in the back of our minds the words of George Washington, "I cannot tell a lie, Pa".

    But as George knew, once we can fake sincerity, we've got it made.

  10. #90
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    I sincerely enjoy your presence on the forum Victor. Keep up the good work!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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