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  1. #51
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Does lying to yourself count?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #52
    Giggity Vie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If a friend lied to prevent a psychopath from killing you, would you actually chastise her in disgust?
    I wouldn't chastise. But I certainly would be thinking it. Where is the line drawn in regards to what is acceptable for lying and what isn't?
    Don't get me wrong, I have lied many times just like everyone else has. But I was seriously disappointed in myself each time and ended up telling the truth anyways.

  3. #53
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Blank
    The murderer at the door allegory is only really a viable solution when you have a god or supernatural being that can save you/your friend's skin.
    ...why?
    Because if you lie, you'll save your friend's life. If you tell the truth, your friend is going to die unless there's a god or supernatural being that will reward you for telling the truth. You're kind of depending on that supernatural being to fix things when they go sour.

    I find people who believe lying is always wrong/should never be done to be naive. Who in their right mind would let someone die if it could be easily avoided with no repercussions?
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  4. #54
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Whether lying is acceptable or unacceptable would greatly depend on whether the conditions within which, it is considered as an option, is ethically acceptable or unacceptable, to begin with.

  5. #55
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    What do you think of the act of "lying"?

    I think it is a tool.. One that usually isn't respected, and thus often used for things that become ill-conceived. It is a powerful tool, and I think people use it like it is a squirt gun in life instead of respecting it as a handgun.

    What would you consider a white/black lie. How severe is 'okay'?

    White lie - Something that doesn't effect the person one way or the other. Examples to illustrate my point:
    1. You need to get off of work.. people's priorities are different for everyone, so even though your dog's wedding to your neighbor's dog was a huge year-long process with dowry's, decorating preparations, and 7 hours of creating a doggie-treat wedding cake.. your boss may not see the importance of it. "I am sick :c No work for meee" could totally substitute without hurting your Boss. These are sketchy though, if you use them too much you run the risk of being caught/not believed.
    2. The sympathetic lies.. You usually see these on TV shows. A girl is devastated her boyfriend was killed tragically... the cops conveniently leave out that he died in bed with a tranny hooker snorting coke from her ass cheeks and instead say, "He seemed to love you very much.." Her heart heals a bit faster as a result, and the dead dude is..well.. dead.. so the lie can't hurt him.
    3. The "I can't illustrate what is going on in my head" lie. You're playing Dungeons and Dragons, a single dude recently becoming a knight. A woman, a key woman to your storyline, has a dowry on her head the size of your ego and you need her anyways.. so you flirt with her to get her to come over to you. IRL, this is an actual single girl playing in your party that you have no interest in, and you are a married dude. When you go home that night, you slip up and mention the situation--only you save it by saying one of the OTHER dudes did this instead of you. An angry, potentially jealous wife situation is avoided, but you still got to tell her the funny situation.

    Black lie -- Anything that negatively affects the other party (i.e. "Your boyfriend called you a cunt the other day infront of his friends!!" and it isn't true..) OR there is a chance that the lie, whatever it is, would be exposed (i.e. you tell your boss you're sick, then post your pictures of the Nick's game you went to that evening.. Boss is your friend on FB.).

    Do you find lying cowardly? Are there benefits to lying? is it necessary for survival?

    It is absolutely cowardly.. but survival isn't about always being brave. Plenty of things in the natural world survive via cowardly acts. We're not all honey badgers. There are immediate benefits to lying, but if it affects the other party or yourself in any way (i.e. 90% of the time...) these benefits are temporary at best and the bigger the lie, the harder it is to maintain it. Oh and lies have a snowball effect that starts super quick. I think it is necessary for survival.. But keep in mind that I think most people are way above the "survival" stage of life right now. They're more in the "I can have this.. I want this.." stage.

    Does anyone firmly believe in the saying that " The Truth Will Set You Free" ?

    I absolutely do.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vie View Post
    Where is the line drawn in regards to what is acceptable for lying and what isn't?
    Simple. If you value the person's trust and affection, don't lie to them. Otherwise, it's just another tool.

    Having sex is repugnant under certain circumstances (ie: rape) but we do not make it a universal taboo. In what way is lying different?

  7. #57
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Because if you lie, you'll save your friend's life. If you tell the truth, your friend is going to die unless there's a god or supernatural being that will reward you for telling the truth. You're kind of depending on that supernatural being to fix things when they go sour.

    I find people who believe lying is always wrong/should never be done to be naive. Who in their right mind would let someone die if it could be easily avoided with no repercussions?
    Under the die hard belief that what is right is right and whats wrong is wrong, Kant created 3 maxims.
    1st, you should ONLY do something if you believe it to be okay for someone to do it, ALL THE TIME. Universality.
    2nd, that each person must be seen as an end, rather than a means to an end. Manipulation is out.
    3rd, everyone is there own moral agent. So if you tell an axe murderer where someone is so he can cut them up, HE IS RESPONSIBLE for these actions, not you.

    It's a deontology vs. consequentailism debate. Reality seems to fly better with consequentialism, or THE GREATER GOOD.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  8. #58
    . Blank's Avatar
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    @Not Me Isn't rape always harmful? Lying isn't necessarily harmful.

    @Huxley Kant is not the only deontologist out there. He also wanted people to practice benificence. I can go on about how Kant would never work in the real world, but that's not the issue right now and you didn't really say much about my post.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  9. #59
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    @Huxley Kant is not the only deontologist out there. He also wanted people to practice benificence. I can go on about how Kant would never work in the real world, but that's not the issue right now and you didn't really say much about my post.
    No, I was simply conveying that it doesn't matter what supernatural being is going to fix shit when it goes sour, because each person is their own moral agent, under the theory. And I agree that there are many deontologists. But if your going to get into exceptions of lying, then your focusing on consequentalism, and if you can't draw a line, then your proposing universality of lying. So I guess what I was getting at, is WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  10. #60
    Giggity Vie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Simple. If you value the person's trust and affection, don't lie to them. Otherwise, it's just another tool.

    Having sex is repugnant under certain circumstances (ie: rape) but we do not make it a universal taboo. In what way is lying different?
    That is an interesting point, I'll give you that.
    Perhaps it is the way I was raised -- but to me it seems like you are comparing apples and oranges.

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