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  1. #31
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    The basic principle of fairness is simple. A person owns what he produces. If he didn't produce it, then he has no more claim on it than anyone else. However, since trade is desirable, things get complicated. What is considered an equitable trade? If someone didn't acquire their property in a fair way, is it really unfair for others to ignore his ownership claim?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    The basic principle of fairness is simple. A person owns what he produces. If he didn't produce it, then he has no more claim on it than anyone else. However, since trade is desirable, things get complicated. What is considered an equitable trade? If someone didn't acquire their property in a fair way, is it really unfair for others to ignore his ownership claim?
    its not unfair, in situations like this its not about fair its about who is in a position cause harm and who isnt

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    A person owns what he produces.
    How does one produce?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    How does one produce?
    stealing cause that takes alot of effort and work is involved. stealing is producing something

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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    i'd feel wrong stealing from an individual (unless they were rich) or a small business. big corporation chain stores are different though because nobody's being directly affected by it.
    how is it exceptable to steal from someone who is rich? do you feel entitled to the fruits of others' labors?
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  6. #36
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    Do you understand how the economy actually works?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Do you understand how the economy actually works?
    are you asking me?
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  8. #38
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    Indeed I am. Because frankly I think the statement "stealing the fruits of someone's labor" from the rich doesn't apply to corporations.

    Do you know about corporate welfare? Corporate tax breaks? How corporations are legally treated as individuals in order to wield power over employees and consumers?

    Do you know how popular it is to find cheap labor in places like Indonesia?

    The fruits of someone's labor my ass. It's a bit more complex than all that.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Indeed I am. Because frankly I think the statement "stealing the fruits of someone's labor" from the rich doesn't apply to corporations.

    Do you know about corporate welfare? Corporate tax breaks? How corporations are legally treated as individuals in order to wield power over employees and consumers?

    Do you know how popular it is to find cheap labor in places like Indonesia?

    The fruits of someone's labor my ass. It's a bit more complex than all that.
    I'm not here to defend corporations or make any argument of the sort (I think they are an evil merger of state and economics, for many of the tax reasons you've listed among others). I'm questioning the assumption that stealing from the rich is somehow more justified or ethical than stealing from the poor.
    PS: one point I will disagree on is labor in indonesia. if they are better off not having a job, then it is by all means their choice (I'm under the assumption that their lives would be much worse without a job than with one, but perhaps I'm wrong). the responsibility of a business is to make money without harming or forcing their fellow man. unless the indonesian population is being made forcibly to work for global companies, then more power to them for providing income for foreign countries. a business is not responsible for providing a luxurious living for it's employees. if the businesses aren't paying them enough, they should start their own businesses. if someone is too weak to take matters into his own hands, he is undeserving of my sympathies
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  10. #40
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    in regards to your original question: economics is the distribution of power and utility. a business is designed to distribute value in the most effective and efficient means possible and sometimes to create entirely new value, and they have a very strong incentive to do this: PROFIT. however, there are a few rules in any lawful society.
    1) no stealing
    2) no violence
    3) no controlling of other people through force or intimidation
    4) respect people's right to go after their own goals, their own ambitions, their own desires and their own self interests, as long as they don't stray from the first 3 rules. that's where a legal system comes in
    "my right to swing my arms stops where my neighbor's nose begins" so to speak.
    5) man is entitled to the fruits of his own labor, and to no one elses. there is no such things as entitlement.
    this is pure and unadulterated economics as allowed it's true existance by capitalism. under such conditions, value will be continuously redistributed efficiently and new value will be created, allowing for a cyclical trend of rapid economic growth as long as this system remains undisturbed.
    corporatism is a corruption of real capitalism because of the interaction between government and economics which leads to lower productivity, higher taxes for the productive and lower taxes for the unproductive, lobbyists, cronies and corrupt businessmen who are the puppetteers or politicians.
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