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  1. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I think they intuit based on their reasoning and form theories which are later tested and proven or disproved. In essence, they make statements like, "If this is held as true...then this must be true..." and make guesses about probable outcomes. And even if they are correct, they still need to verify it with experience (as through methodology and experimentation), otherwise it is just a guess.

    The short answer is...they speculate.
    I certainly don't dispute that. But I thought you agreed that these speculations were more than simple guesses or hunches. i.e. they carry more weight than off the cuff guesses, or hunches.

    Is that correct?

    As an engineer, I make these sorts of speculations all the time. Most of them turn out to be correct. So far, when the speculations were wrong, it was because I made mistakes in the calculations, or assumptions that fed the calculations.

    I'd be fired if I were just guessing all the time or working only off hunches, and I'd be wrong a lot more. I know this, because as I gain experience, I am actually able to reason through bigger circuits and have them be correct.

    Although, I am now trying to do more analog design this is what I spent most of my career doing (though of course, more complicated).

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #72
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I certainly don't dispute that. But I thought you agreed that these speculations were more than simple guesses or hunches. i.e. they carry more weight than off the cuff guesses, or hunches.

    Is that correct?
    An educated guess is always better than an uneducated guess. But where does education come from?

    Puhzah, all things come back to experience.

    On that note, human behavior almost always follows one simple rule. What has worked before will probably work again. It's inescapable, and entire armies have been destroyed, cities turned to ashes, civilizations collapsed, because someone at some point figures out that we will try the same thing, and so they try something different to take advantage of that pattern and all hell breaks loose. It seems history turns on a dime for those who are smart enough to guess a way that exploits the old way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  3. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    An educated guess is always better than an uneducated guess. But where does education come from?

    Puhzah, all things come back to experience.
    I agree with this as well. That's why I say we are in agreement.

    When I say reson begets reason...

    Well think of this... We are created from our parents. But our parents had parents, our grand parents had parents... and if we trace it all the way back we have some primodial soup.

    So, in a sense, we are begotten from primordial soup.
    (and where does that come from?)

    But it is not really inaccurate to say our parents begot us.

    I am going with proximate antecedents.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #74
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I agree with this as well. That's why I say we are in agreement.

    When I say reson begets reason...

    Well think of this... We are created from our parents. But our parents had parents, our grand parents had parents... and if we trace it all the way back we have some primodial soup.

    So, in a sense, we are begotten from primordial soup.
    (and where does that come from?)

    But it is not really inaccurate to say our parents begot us.

    I am going with proximate antecedents.
    True. But if I stopped experiencing stuff today, and I only reasoned, there is no way I could reason out anything beyond the experience I have had up to that point. Everything else would just be speculation. Reason is dependent on further experience to reach further understanding. If you stopped learning stuff today, you couldn't reason out the entire world based on just the reasoning you currently have at your disposal. So, to be more precise, reason is limited by experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    True. But if I stopped experiencing stuff today, and I only reasoned, there is no way I could reason out anything beyond the experience I have had up to that point. Everything else would just be speculation. Reason is dependent on further experience to reach further understanding. If you stopped learning stuff today, you couldn't reason out the entire world based on just the reasoning you currently have at your disposal. So, to be more precise, reason is limited by experience.
    Yup. I agree with this as well.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #76
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Yup. I agree with this as well.
    Then what have we been debating about for all this time? :steam:

    Oh well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Then what have we been debating about for all this time? :steam:

    Oh well.
    Like I said, semantics

    We just needed to know what the other meant.

    It never amazes me how many disagreements are based on differences in semantics.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #78
    Senior Member TheLastMohican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Like I said, semantics

    We just needed to know what the other meant.

    It never amazes me how many disagreements are based on differences in semantics.
    Tell me about it.

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