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  1. #1
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Default (A)theism and Art

    (Mod note: discussion split from http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-atheists.html)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    What I see is some dude being tortured with millions of people celebrating his death as a martyr. To me martyrdom is as equally selfish as suicide since you don't have to live through the fallout of your death and see the pain in the eyes of people who loved you.

    So now, where do we stand? You believe torture is beautiful and I find it gross.

    Here's a link to a Buddhist Monk setting himself on fire to bring attention to the repressive policies of the Catholic Diem regime that controlled the South Vietnamese government in 1963. Is this beautiful too since it's symbolic of [insert theist (buddhist) reasons]? Millions of people also revere this monk for his martyrdom.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E37cMtCrKoA
    Christ's death did cause pain for his followers and family. He appeared to them after he was resurrected, though, so I would imagine that gave them some reassurance. He was alive in heaven after his ascension there, as well, so he wasn't gone in a spiritual sense, at least. Regarding suicide, I agree that it is a selfish act. I hope you haven't had anyone close to you do that. It must be pretty devastating for those left behind. As for the Buddhist monk, I'm only superficially knowledgeable about Buddhism so can't really comment on the practices of their monks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post

    The other argument previously presented that IM completely ignored, was that who's to say the artwork created by the atheists she's so quick to impugn, aren't symbolic of [insert belief or cause].
    Those works of art are sometimes symbolic of a particular belief or cause. What I object to is when they produce works that are openly hostile to Christianity. Why attack an image of the Virgin of Guadalupe, for example? It's an image revered by so many people, and prayer to the Virgin has resulted in healings and great comfort to many Catholics. Why attack that? I also object to the atheist art faculty, gallery owners, and artists who are openly hostile to expressions of faith by artists and art students. What kind of artistic freedom is that? They have taken control of the contemporary art scene and do not want to allow artists with any kind of religious beliefs a place there. They are just as prejudiced and narrow-minded as they accuse theists of being.
    Last edited by Randomnity; 03-27-2011 at 08:44 PM.

  2. #2
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    Christ's death did cause pain for his followers and family. He appeared to them after he was resurrected, though, so I would imagine that gave them some reassurance. He was alive in heaven after his ascension there, as well, so he wasn't gone in a spiritual sense, at least. As for suicide, I agree that it is a selfish act. I hope you haven't had anyone close to you do that. It must be pretty devastating for those left behind. As for the Buddhist monk, I'm only superficially knowledgeable about Buddhism so can't really comment on the practices of their monks.
    Back away from the dogma. Look at the logic. If there's beauty in one, there's beauty in the other.

    Those works of art are sometimes symbolic of a particular belief or cause. What I object to is when they produce works that are openly hostile to Christianity. Why attack an image of the Virgin of Guadalupe, for example? It's an image revered by so many people, and prayer to the Virgin has resulted in healings and great comfort to many Catholics. Why attack that? I also object to the atheist art faculty, gallery owners, and artists who are openly hostile to expressions of faith by artists and art students. What kind of artistic freedom is that? They have taken control of the contemporary art scene and do not want to allow artists with any kind of religious beliefs a place there. They are just as prejudiced and narrow-minded as they accuse theists of being.
    Whoah, whoah, whoah, this is a completely different stance than prior. What you're protesting has nothing to do with beauty as a concept, it has to do with certain artists creating artwork that you believe is blasphemous or people in the art world who don't endorse your beliefs.

    Do you see what I see? Probably not.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Whoah, whoah, whoah, this is a completely different stance than prior. What you're protesting has nothing to do with beauty as a concept, it has to do with certain artists creating artwork that you believe is blasphemous or people in the art world who don't endorse your beliefs.

    Do you see what I see? Probably not.
    It would be one thing to express one's taste in art, but instead I've been accused of being an artist, and not just any artist, but a blasphemous artist, and I don't even do art. Except when I do. And when I do, it isn't blasphemy.

    But to have a taste in art, we would want to be able to defend our position, yes? I think, sometimes, we want to show others that our tastes are good tastes, and one way to do this is to point out extraordinary examples of modern art, while tying in a belief system to the work (I don't know why anyone thought this added validity to an argument against atheism) in an attempt to make the work appear less attractive. But the jokes on them, because I don't have a high opinion of these works either.

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    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    It would be one thing to express one's taste in art, but instead I've been accused of being an artist, and not just any artist, but a blasphemous artist, and I don't even do art. Except when I do. And when I do, it isn't blasphemy.


    But to have a taste in art, we would want to be able to defend our position, yes? I think, sometimes, we want to show others that our tastes are good tastes, and one way to do this is to point out extraordinary examples of modern art, while tying in a belief system to the work (I don't know why anyone thought this added validity to an argument against atheism) in an attempt to make the work appear less attractive. But the jokes on them, because I don't have a high opinion of these works either.
    It's head smackingly..head smacking!

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    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Back away from the dogma. Look at the logic. If there's beauty in one, there's beauty in the other.

    Whoah, whoah, whoah, this is a completely different stance than prior. What you're protesting has nothing to do with beauty as a concept, it has to do with certain artists creating artwork that you believe is blasphemous or people in the art world who don't endorse your beliefs.

    Do you see what I see? Probably not.
    I'm aware of the logic. The Buddhist monk martyring himself by setting himself on fire to protest something is not the same as Christ being crucified by other people. The monk committted suicide, Christ did not. Christ's death was not a protest, either, and he didn't die eternally after his act- he was resurrected. Suicide is a denial of hope, therefore I cannot say the monk's martyrdom was an act of beauty. However, I do respect and acknowledge the fact that it was considered a noble, selfless act by adherents of Buddhism.

    No, I don't see what you see.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    I'm aware of the logic. The Buddhist monk martyring himself by setting himself on fire to protest something is not the same as Christ being crucified by other people. The monk committted suicide, Christ did not. Christ's death was not a protest, either, and he didn't die eternally after his act- he was resurrected. Suicide is a denial of hope, therefore I cannot say the monk's martyrdom was an act of beauty. However, I do respect and acknowledge the fact that it was considered a noble, selfless act by adherents of Buddhism.

    No, I don't see what you see.
    I find the monk's sacrifice very meaningful because there was a purpose behind it, a statement stronger than a living, breathing, talking person could make, but that a burning, dying man could shake the world with. It isn't at the behest of others that he would martyred, it was choice, it was independence, it was pain, it was not for glory, it did not lead him to eternal reward. The story is definitely compelling and inspirational to a huge number of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Back away from the dogma. Look at the logic. If there's beauty in one, there's beauty in the other.

    Whoah, whoah, whoah, this is a completely different stance than prior. What you're protesting has nothing to do with beauty as a concept, it has to do with certain artists creating artwork that you believe is blasphemous or people in the art world who don't endorse your beliefs.

    Do you see what I see? Probably not.
    No. her art is being rejected for some florescent tubes and ink blotches that are being called art.
    She feels her art is a gift from God.. Since art is a virus that only some people catch. It is indeed a gift regardless of it's origin.
    To have her work cast aside for 3 lines that look like a flag on an a 12 foot canvas is a sin.. literally.
    It's a sin against humanity and it's sin against ART.
    You just need to see the bigger picture my dear.

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    I went to the national gallery of Canada last week.

    A whole viewing room (20'x20') had these two pieces of "art" hanging in it.



    Or how about the lovely "Voice of Fire"
    Look at the space being wasted that could be filled with REAL art.



    When stuff like this takes up space that could be filled with real art and real talent I see I.M.s point.
    Put her faith aside and listen to the artist that she is.
    She is crying for art, not trying to convert anyone to Christianity.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Mephistopheles's Avatar
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    You both seem to dismiss that you will never be able to convince someone by insulting them.

    Yeah, everything beside your personal taste in art isn't REAL art.
    They say I only think in form of crunching numbers.....
    -Fall Out Boy

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I went to the national gallery of Canada last week.

    A whole viewing room (20'x20') had these two pieces of "art" hanging in it.
    What are the religious views of these artists?

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