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  1. #31
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    I am not sure how the conversation turned to art in such a literal sense…as in… ‘why some artists do not use their God given talent to invoke feelings of inspiration in others’ and ‘what constitutes good art vs bad art’ etc. because I do not feel this was Intricate Mystic’s original intention.

    I actually feel Intricate Mystic’s original message was quite clear and very much on topic. She was using her own personal experience in the art world as a microcosm in order to deduce what the world might be like if there were only Atheists…and from that she concluded:

    Yes, that is correct. The NF's get it!

    The problem with this conclusion is that one need only to turn to another subject…a subject that art most often reflects rather than influences…and examine the ‘historical world’ to see that there may be some trouble/hypocrisy to her claim.

    With regards to Christianity alone…one need only consider such atrocities or ‘sins against humanity’ as the slaughter of the Celts, Pagans, unimaginable numbers of tribal peoples…the Crusades (I believe there were maybe 9 Crusades total) …the Protestant Reformation…the Spanish Inquisition…the Salem Witch trials…the execution of such individuals as Joan of Arc, Bruno, etc. …the persecution of Galileo, Keppler, Copernicus…the Holocaust…the persecution of homosexuals…Rwanda… and I don’t even know how many ‘Holy Wars’…in order to see that it is inaccurate to suggest that the adherents to the major religions are the only ones seeking to spread ‘goodness & light’…while the atheists are busy working against this by insisting on spreading ‘loneliness & despair’.

    Moreover, when one considers these ‘sins against humanity’…it is not as surprising that some forum members may have taken offense to what Intricate Mystic suggested. It may also be why the art sometimes looks so bad. It may also be why some people, in their sorrow, turn their backs on Christianity and the other major religions. And why some people may ultimately decide…’There can’t possibly be a God. There is no God at all’.

    It is important to always remain mindful of the fact that there are terrible, terrible people in all walks of life.
    You made some very good points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Um. Ok, let's compare these two. I don't remember my art genres very well so bear with me

    1) symbolic/pop/shock art; not religious, but not anti-religious either; faith of artist unknown
    2) basically realistic; religious; faith of artist unknown
    Well, I do find realistic art to require more skill and talent than other types of art (GENERALLY speaking). It's time-consuming, hard work, and requires abilities that not everyone possesses. Actually it's a type of art that ISTPs can be good at.


    I get the second one as an example of religious art, it seems pretty standard although not really my thing. I'm not sure where the first one came from - it seems entirely random. It's also a very different genre (about as different as possible) as well as from a different era (contemporary vs...renaissance?), so you can't really compare them unless you say "realism = theist artists; shock art= atheist artists" which is clearly ridiculous.

    I can show you another artwork that fits the category of "not religious, but not anti-religious either; faith of artist unknown":

    (I tried to search for specifically atheist art but that information is hard to find online, for obvious reasons)



    Don't you think it's a little biased to choose a can of poop as a representative sample of a group so diverse?
    Yes, it is. However, people have openly discussed the fact that the current art world has been taken over by atheists. I'm not the only one who has reached this conclusion. One recent trend in it has been for people to portray humans with the heads of animals. It diminishes our humanity as people having been created in the image of God to give us the heads of animals. It's offensive. Anyone who is a practicing Jew, Christian or Muslim would probably find this offensive, as well.

    So how does a can of poop reflect atheist philosphy (assuming the artist is atheist)?
    Well, anything we call "art" tends to elevate it because of the great artistic legacy humanity possesses. Humans have produced some pretty magnificent works of art- both paintings and sculpture that makes us "oohh" and "aahhh" because of the supreme talent and creativity that were involved in creating them. Producing poop, in contrast, is something any human being can do without much effort (unless they are constipated ). Making poop requires zero talent or creativity. Therefore, elevating such a thing to the level of "art" seems to be crapping all over the amazing work of artists from the past, and it craps all over humanity as a whole to say, "Hey, I'm an artist with a lot of talent, but I choose to not use my talents but, instead to put my poop in a can as my artistic gift to you". It's the sort of thing that the current atheist-dominated art world tends to value. They also like to create a "shift in perspective" that occurs when you are viewing weird stuff and get into the mind of the artist. It's supposed to be akin to a religious experience.

    This sketch was drawn by someone who I know to be atheist:



    What do you think his/his life philosophy is?
    Perhaps he values nature? It's a beautiful drawing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    And just for a bit of balance, here's an example of religious art which is not really all that happy and joyful and celebrating wonder and mystery in the world:

    It's interesting...a depiction of hell, I assume? For those who believe Hell exists and that we all have the potential to go there after death, it's a work of art with a message that is relevant, regardless of how many centuries in the past it was produced.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    Yes, it is. However, people have openly discussed the fact that the current art world has been taken over by atheists. I'm not the only one who has reached this conclusion. One recent trend in it has been for people to portray humans with the heads of animals. It diminishes our humanity as people having been created in the image of God to give us the heads of animals. It's offensive. Anyone who is a practicing Jew, Christian or Muslim would probably find this offensive, as well.
    Humans are closer to divinity than they are to animals, then. This is a good outlook, very human-centric and inspiring. I too value humanity greatly.

  3. #33
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    You're discounting the effects of time period and non-religion-related cultural differences, which are both huge factors.
    Ok, explain how those factors are at work here.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #34
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    This thread:

    Creative expression is lit by strong emotion, passion and belief in one's art.

    We can get passionate about religion, and make our god our muse, this is I'm sure what many great religious painters did. However, there are many more things we can be passionate about, and many things we can make our muse. The atheist has access to just as many of these as the theist does. In the end, it comes down to their passionate personality.

    I believe it would be a good thing if everyone in the world was atheist. Not those hardcore atheists though, eugh. Just normal agnostic-atheists.

    It might be--and I claim no certainty--that new beliefs systems that could be described as spiritual and yet not religious could foster. For example of one such system, look at Einstein's "spiritual" beliefs in my sig quote and this quotes:

    "The sense of the religious, which is released through the experience of potentially nearing a logical grasp of these deep-lying world relations, is … a feeling of awe and reverence for the manifest Reason which appears in reality. It does not lead to the assumption of a divine personality—a person who makes demands of us and takes an interest in our individual being. In this there is no Will, nor Aim, nor an Ought, but only Being."

    — Found in Goldman, p. 33.

    Here we have inspiration without the weighty burden of doctrine and custom.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  5. #35

    Default Continuing art derail

    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    Well, using the word "celebrate" was an exaggeration on my part. I actually started looking for artworks to illustrate my point, though. I thought of my atheist art professor's work, but just couldn't bring myself to post a link to it because while the darkness of his work makes me sad, and the fact that he has the knowledge and talent needed to produce much more detailed, technically impressive work but chooses not to, he is a nice guy and was a wonderful teacher. At the end of the day, I just don't have the heart to criticize my fellow artists on a personal level. However, since I've never met this guy, I will give his work as an example of what I'm talking about:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist%27s_shit
    Consider that work versus this:
    http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth...magnificat.jpg



    It's the world-view of atheists. The work artists create tends to show their belief-system on some level. Therefore, the art an atheist or theist produces will probably reflect their beliefs and/or philosophies to a certain degree.
    Then what of (self-described Roman Catholic) Andres Serrano and one of his many (sacrilegious some say) religious art installations?

    This is Piss Christ:


    This is Madonna and Child II:


    [His religious art is frequently submerged in urine, blood, feces, and/or semen.]

    Quotes related to the artist's work and faith:
    Sister Wendy Beckett, an art critic and Catholic nun, stated in a television interview with Bill Moyers that she regarded the work as not blasphemous but a statement on "what we have done to Christ": that is, the way contemporary society has come to regard Christ and the values he represents.
    Andres Serrano: "I have always felt that my work is religious, not sacrilegious. I would say that there are many individuals in the Church who appreciate it and who do not have a problem with it. The best place for Piss Christ is in a church. In fact, I recently had a show in Marseilles in an actual church that also functions as an exhibition space, and the work looked great there. I think if the Vatican is smart, someday they'll collect my work."
    Clearly artistic tastes differ from (although they can be influenced by) religious preferences and are not to be confused with one another. Equating "bad taste in art" with atheistic or theistic artwork is pointless and irrelevant.

    Art is art, even when it's debatable and IF it's debatable, it is not because of the artist's (anti-)religious beliefs, but rather their method of delivery.
    Last edited by iwakar; 03-27-2011 at 05:34 PM. Reason: spacing, typo
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  6. #36
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Damn, this video is so fricking relevant to this thread. All should listen to this.

    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  7. #37
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancynobullets View Post
    Damn, this video is so fricking relevant to this thread. All should listen to this.


    I don't care what colorful and emotional language you use the bottom line is that in a materialist world beauty is perception based. You perceive something to be beautiful because of a random colliding of chemicals in your brain.

    Within a Christian worldview beauty is an intrinsic quality possessed by both God and created things. When we view something as beautiful we are recognizing it's intrinsic value not merely experiencing a chemically stimulated emotional response.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #38
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I don't care what colorful and emotional language you use the bottom line is that in a materialist world beauty is perception based. You perceive something to be beautiful because of a random colliding of chemicals in your brain.

    Within a Christian worldview beauty is an intrinsic quality possessed by both God and created things. When we view something as beautiful we are recognizing it's intrinsic value not merely experiencing a chemically stimulated emotional response.
    To defend the agnositc-atheist view:
    The fact beauty and our feelings of beauty are explainable does not undermine their beauty. If you believe that it does that is your subjective opinion, just as it is Fry's subjective opinion to believe otherwise. By "perception based" I feel you mean to say that the atheist is like an animal eating sweet fruit, he gorges on the perception he finds so tasty, only taking pleasure at its most base level. You mean to say, I believe, that the atheist will not take what is called "spiritual" pleasure from things. But there is no reason to believe this. I believe kindness is beautiful, and so would feel emotionally touched to see an act of kindness. This is even when I know honouring kindness might not be defensible logically, save for utilitarian reasons.

    To criticise the Christian world view:
    I fully believe that a Christian can see the world in such a way. But, when you say that something possesses "intrinsic" qualities you base that belief on God, which is also your subjective belief. Why cant an atheist also have a subjective belief that, say, something is beautiful?
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  9. #39

    Default Contininuing in the vein of art derail

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Within a Christian worldview beauty is an intrinsic quality possessed by both God and created things. When we view something as beautiful we are recognizing it's intrinsic value not merely experiencing a chemically stimulated emotional response.
    Are atheists, agnostics etc. not created things and not "blessed" with your same beautiful worldview? By your own values, non-Christians (which is merely a subset of theists) are also of God. So are you seriously positing that a magic lens of artistic appreciation falls over our eyes when we commit to your version of God?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  10. #40
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I don't care what colorful and emotional language you use the bottom line is that in a materialist world beauty is perception based. You perceive something to be beautiful because of a random colliding of chemicals in your brain. Within a Christian worldview beauty is an intrinsic quality possessed by both God and created things. When we view something as beautiful we are recognizing it's intrinsic value not merely experiencing a chemically stimulated emotional response.
    So you're saying you need to "make up" some reason (AKA divine participation) for you to accept life as beautiful, because otherwise you would be a nihilist and would see any form of beauty or happiness as a complete lie. (That is the rational basis you are arguing on right now.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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