• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Atheists:

Do you think the world would be better if everyone were an atheist?

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 27.5%
  • No

    Votes: 52 57.1%
  • Other - please explain

    Votes: 14 15.4%

  • Total voters
    91

tinker683

Whackus Bonkus
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
2,882
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
my reasons for believing in God are mostly because I'm afraid of the consequences of not believing and being wrong

Pascel's Wager.

Questions for you about this line of thinking:

1) Are you sure the God you are choosing to believe in is the right one?
2) Are you living correctly according to the tenets of this deity? (I ask because a lot of the more "traditional" religions takes a dim view of homosexuality)
3) Do you believe that this deity will accept your faith not because it is based on genuine piety but rather because you just dont want to be wrong and want to avoid getting spanked for worshiping an idol (which could potential be happening anyway, see question #1 )
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Pascel's Wager.
Questions for you about this line of thinking:
1) Are you sure the God you are choosing to believe in is the right one?
Judaism, Islam and Christianity all have the same God, but Christianity also has Jesus, so it's the safest bet

2) Are you living correctly according to the tenets of this deity? (I ask because a lot of the more "traditional" religions takes a dim view of homosexuality)
all that is required to go to heaven is to accept Jesus as for dying for your sins.

3) Do you believe that this deity will accept your faith not because it is based on genuine piety but rather because you just dont want to be wrong and want to avoid getting spanked for worshiping an idol (which could potential be happening anyway, see question #1 )
yes
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm not really big on Pascal's Wager.

Why? Because it's merely "fire insurance."

My personal opinion is that spirituality has to be a passion pursued out of belief, not an attempt to play the odds / game the system / save one's bacon. And any deity worth following wouldn't honor someone following her or him simply to avoid punishment. Who wants to spend an eternity of time with people who are just using you?

It seems to be one of the basest of reasons to follow a particular faith. as an equivalent, why not just tell your spouse, "I actually don't love you nor want to really be with you; I just married you for the tax benefits and/or because I didn't want to be alone"?

...Heart-warming stuff there.
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm not really big on Pascal's Wager.

Why? Because it's merely "fire insurance."

My personal opinion is that spirituality has to be a passion pursued out of belief, not an attempt to play the odds / game the system / save one's bacon. And any deity worth following wouldn't honor someone following her or him simply to avoid punishment. Who wants to spend an eternity of time with people who are just using you?

It seems to be one of the basest of reasons to follow a particular faith. as an equivalent, why not just tell your spouse, "I actually don't love you nor want to really be with you; I just married you for the tax benefits and/or because I didn't want to be alone"?

...Heart-warming stuff there.

avoiding higher taxes and avoiding the possibility can hardly be compared. believe it or not, self preservation is not a crime
 

tinker683

Whackus Bonkus
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
2,882
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Judaism, Islam and Christianity all have the same God, but Christianity also has Jesus, so it's the safest bet

The safest bet. What an interesting thing to say. Why is it the safest bet? With all the other religions out there, what makes the Abrahamic religions the most valid to you?

all that is required to go to heaven is to accept Jesus as for dying for your sins.

Sola Gratia my Protestant friend ;) All the same, I can promise you there are some Christians who might tell you that while this is important, it's not quite enough and I know some other brand of theists who tell you that you are flat out wrong.


If you say so

I'm not really big on Pascal's Wager.

Why? Because it's merely "fire insurance."

Essentially.

My personal opinion is that spirituality has to be a passion pursued out of belief, not an attempt to play the odds / game the system / save one's bacon. And any deity worth following wouldn't honor someone following her or him simply to avoid punishment. Who wants to spend an eternity of time with people who are just using you?

It seems to be one of the basest of reasons to follow a particular faith. as an equivalent, why not just tell your spouse, "I actually don't love you nor want to really be with you; I just married you for the tax benefits and/or because I didn't want to be alone"?

...Heart-warming stuff there.

Indeedy. My issue with Pascel's Wager is that it misses the whole point of Jesus's death and resurrection (a point some Christians might argue with me). He died to bring humanity closer to God, to show them a way to break the bonds of sin and live a godly live (assuming of course you subscribe to Christian thought).

To then take his gift and say, "I'm going to go ahead and believe and worship you, but not because I genuinely believe in your existence or the gift of salvation you gave to me. No, it's because I might be wrong and I'd rather avoid the penalty box"

Which might work (far be it from me to assume the motivations and desires of a supreme being) but it not only seems incredibly dishonest to me, but it just completely misses the point.
 

Red Herring

Superwoman
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
7,488
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
By that logic you would have to be a Muslim since Islam honors Jesus as a prophet but has Mohammed on top of that.


In the immortal words of the great Ned Flanders: "I'm not a bad man. I don't drink or dance or swear. I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! I've even kept kosher, just to stay on the safe side. "
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
avoiding higher taxes and avoiding the possibility can hardly be compared. believe it or not, self preservation is not a crime

We're not talking about crimes. We're talking about relationships. You want a relationship with "God" or whatever who is supposed to promote love, connection, and sacrificial giving, then it shouldn't be treated like a self-directed business transaction.

Indeedy. My issue with Pascel's Wager is that it misses the whole point of Jesus's death and resurrection (a point some Christians might argue with me). He died to bring humanity closer to God, to show them a way to break the bonds of sin and live a godly live (assuming of course you subscribe to Christian thought).

To then take his gift and say, "I'm going to go ahead and believe and worship you, but not because I genuinely believe in your existence or the gift of salvation you gave to me. No, it's because I might be wrong and I'd rather avoid the penalty box"

Which might work (far be it from me to assume the motivations and desires of a supreme being) but it not only seems incredibly dishonest to me, but it just completely misses the point.

Yup, you get what I'm saying.

And if it would work, then it wouldn't be a deity I'd even see a point in following. I might do lip service to the bare minimum possible, but otherwise my heart and mind will be elsewhere.

Pascal's Wager caters to the lowest aspect of human behavior.
 

Silveresque

Active member
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
1,169
my reasons for believing in God are mostly because I'm afraid of the consequences of not believing and being wrong

The realization of that is what made me decide that I'm an atheist. I decided that fear is just not a good enough reason to believe in a higher power.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
The realization of that is what made me decide that I'm an atheist. I decided that fear is just not a good enough reason to believe in a higher power.
+1, I am an agnostic bordering on atheism for pretty much the same reason. Although many of the religions have moral guidelines I respect, it just seems arbitrary sometimes with the typical "the saved vs. the damned" dichotomy.
 

Tamske

Writing...
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
1,764
MBTI Type
ENTP
my reasons for believing in God are mostly because I'm afraid of the consequences of not believing and being wrong
But what if you happen to believe in the wrong god? Then you didn't only lose heaven, but also time and energy on it... What if you restrict from sex to please our Christian god, you die and you meet a fertility godess who's very angry at you? You didn't only fail to please the godess, you also missed out on the sex...
(okay, didn't see the follow-up posts. Tinker said it well. It's indeed Pascal's wager; and I just picked one problem out of it)
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
But what if you happen to believe in the wrong god? Then you didn't only lose heaven, but also time and energy on it... What if you restrict from sex to please our Christian god, you die and you meet a fertility godess who's very angry at you? You didn't only fail to please the godess, you also missed out on the sex...
(okay, didn't see the follow-up posts. Tinker said it well. It's indeed Pascal's wager; and I just picked one problem out of it)

that's an unavoidable risk, but Christianity seems to have the most believable God
 
A

A window to the soul

Guest
But what if you happen to believe in the wrong god? Then you didn't only lose heaven, but also time and energy on it... What if you restrict from sex to please our Christian god, you die and you meet a fertility godess who's very angry at you? You didn't only fail to please the godess, you also missed out on the sex...
(okay, didn't see the follow-up posts. Tinker said it well. It's indeed Pascal's wager; and I just picked one problem out of it)

lolz, no, no, no. You have that skewed. Hey, I thought you were married Tamske? It's scandalous, but I'm curious, who else are you [or aren't you] sleeping with where you're potentially going to piss off "a fertility goddess" in the sky?

Seriously, Jesus was crucified for our sins. There will be no judgment or condemnation for those in Christ; regardless, of who you slept with. Furthermore, when you have a relationship with God, you naturally want to obey. It's the same type of respectful relationship one might have in a monogamous marriage/relationship or respect to obey one's parents. It's a natural desire to do right by the other person.
 

Tamske

Writing...
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
1,764
MBTI Type
ENTP
that's an unavoidable risk, but Christianity seems to have the most believable God
Really?
A father-god who gets a virgin girl pregnant? Who is the same as his son? A son-god who has to die for our sins? Can't an all-powerful god not just twist the rules, instead of sacrificing himself to himself? Can't an all-merciful god not just say, when he's here on Earth, that illness comes from bacteria, and give some useful hints as to how to brew vaccins and antibiotics?

lolz, no, no, no. You have that skewed. Hey, I thought you were married Tamske? It's scandalous, but I'm curious, who else are you [or aren't you] sleeping with where you're potentially going to piss off "a fertility goddess" in the sky?
Didn't I say before I was an atheist? I'm not pleasing a fertility godess any more than I'm pleasing the Christian god. Please. I'm married, I'm NOT commiting adultery, and I'm doing that because I'm a trustworthy human being. Because I commited to my hubby and I take that commitment seriously. Because I respect my husband, because he's a human just like me, and he deserves my respect. Not because I'm afraid of displeasing a creature I only know from hearsay.
Seriously, Jesus was crucified for our sins.
Really? How do you know this? Can you show, rather than tell, me why I should believe you?
There will be no judgment or condemnation for those in Christ; regardless, of who you slept with. Furthermore, when you have a relationship with God, you naturally want to obey. It's the same type of respectful relationship one might have in a monogamous marriage/relationship or respect to obey one's parents. It's a natural desire to do right by the other person.
I'm suspecting you took my post way too literally. I just gave an example of a Pascal's wager ("let's believe just in case") might go wrong. What if I believe in Christ, just to get to the right side after death, and it's Odin there to judge me?
How can I know for sure that I have to worship Christ and not Odin, not Astarte, not Allah, not...?
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
Yes I'm not sure why anyone would say the virgin birth is believable in this day and age. My cousin was raised in an even more religious home than I was (my uncle married a woman whose family was VERY religious) and at the age of eleven she said to me shyly one night, "you know, I really have a problem with believing that whole virgin thing."

What struck me about it as a teenager was how sadistic it was for a God to basically rape a virgin, subject her to public humiliation and possible rejection by her finace AND perhaps even a public stoning, and then force her to go through childbirth without ever having experienced the pleasure of sex, plus having the extreme pain that would be involved with the hymen being broken that way? WTF? WHAT KIND OF WOMAN HATING PIECE OF SHIT GOD IS THIS? GIVE ME A BREAK.

And they all kind of sound like that...you know, Islam and their corral of virgins in the sky and burqas...it's just a bunch of social control shit.

I don't think I ever would have bought into any of the theistic religions had I not been raised heavily in a religious environment because it seems so ridiculous to me now, and I marvel that I ever believed it so strongly. Brainwashing during the formative years is a powerful thing, never doubt that.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
A father-god who gets a virgin girl pregnant? Who is the same as his son? A son-god who has to die for our sins? Can't an all-powerful god not just twist the rules, instead of sacrificing himself to himself? Can't an all-merciful god not just say, when he's here on Earth, that illness comes from bacteria, and give some useful hints as to how to brew vaccins and antibiotics?

Typically it's about Essentialism. The moral code is not "chosen" by god, it flows from god's nature. You can still think god is sadistic for having a certain nature; but really, it's like saying, "Well, why DO children get scarred when parents verbally abuse them? Can't we change it so that parents can verbally abuse their kids but it doesn't mess them up?" The morality is inherent to the situation and people in question, it's not an arbitrary thing but flows from essence. The results of "sinful behavior" thus are not arbitrary either, they are naturally generated by the "sinful behavior."

So it's a pretty widespread argument in Christianity that morality flows out of god's character. He might also be considered "omnipotent" which makes it sound like he can do anything he liked, but I typically understood that as merely having control over physical creation and things created within it; what he is not free to do according to the theology is act against his own character.

I guess the notion of redemptive sacrifice IS god's way (within the theology) of acknowledging reality (rather than just changing it) and yet finding a work-around.

That's my understanding of the doctrine, anyhoo.
 

jimrckhnd

New member
Joined
Jul 16, 2011
Messages
447
MBTI Type
INTP
that's an unavoidable risk, but Christianity seems to have the most believable God

I'll bet a Moslem, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Hindu, etc., etc. would say the exact same thing. It seems obvious to me that if you are deist and you find one god/belief system more believable than another you'd adopt that god/belief system. Why would anyone adopt what they consider to be system of beliefs with a lower probability of being "true" than another.

I suspect that statement is more than a little culturally influenced.
 
A

A window to the soul

Guest
[MENTION=8327]Tamske[/MENTION], thanks for your response. I prompted you to clarify your point because I don't think you realized how your example came across to the common nerd that likes to over-analyze these things. :p

I understand that you're not trying to advocate immoral behavior for the sake of "do what feels good". Regardless of whether or not there’s a God, we're accountable to ourselves. Drugs, sex: there are physical consequences in the 'here and now' for our sins (i.e., health problems). Your example seemed like a bogus example that didn't fit into the context of your own life (since I knew you were married) or what the majority in society would consider moral. So basically, I don’t think it matters what ones spiritual beliefs are because most people understand the worldly dangers of being sexually promiscuous.

How did I come to know Jesus? I don't need any further justification to believe in the unseen when I set out on journey to find the truth. I set out "open" to the possibility of God and eventually my heart found him in the midst of the storm. I'm not here to judge or prove that to anyone, as each person must walk their own path in life and do their own exploration. Though, I am always happy to share my experience and love for the awesome God that created us.

I think what [MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] said makes sense because the Bible (God's word) tells the whole story, if one reads it in its entirety. The Christian God (Jesus) is the only God that makes provisions for the redemption of mankind from sin. Being an ENTP, that makes the most sense to me and I appreciate God's creativity there. It's as if he's trying to teach us (and perhaps the angels) something through his own actions. I find it very fascinating how God created us because he wants a relationship with us (a family) and he wants us to want to know him with our own free wills. Not by force.

As for the virgin, the cross: I see a very creative, humble God that tasted life and death "as man", for man. It doesn't need to line up with my 'ideals' of what an almighty God should do. It's Gods unique and perfect plan. Even though I have so many questions, my Fe tells me that I should respect the ones that made me (i.e., God, my parents); regardless of logic or how I feel.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
I wonder if it would comfort atheists to believe that God wasn't a person, but a thing.
 
Top