Atheists:

[Beorn]

i'm sorry...i honestly don't mean to read into what you've written. i guess i'm having a hard time understanding what you mean. it sounds like you think without faith in an afterlife that ones values are meaningless. that one would have no reason to chose right over wrong.

Oh I'm not offended I just wanted to let you know.

It sounds like your only considering the afterlife aspects of religion whereas I am speaking of religion as a comprehensive philosophy. Specifically here I'm considering the distinction between my religion and others like it that presume moral absolutes and other views that presume moral relativism. So here it's not the belief in an afterlife that is important but the belief in a universal law giver. Without a universal law giver there is no reason to argue anything one way or another because ultimately it just doesn't matter.

 

[Beorn]

That must be your favorite argument against atheists, Beefeater.

I haven't heard a good response yet.

 

[Beorn]

I guess the simplest form of these questions is, "how can a value ever be anything more than an arbitrary mental entity, existing solely in people's minds?"

When God actually exists and people are capable of aligning their values with God's.

 

[Stanton Moore]

I'm no longer an atheist. But I'm not a theist either. I simply don't know what exists, and neither does anyone else, whatever they claim and however they define it.
I do see that there are wise people who have transcended the need to know the unknowable(and the fear that underlies it).
I also see that humans have a fundamental need to believe in something bigger then themselves, but this doesn't have to be a god. Atheists never have anything to say about that.

 

[Nicodemus]

I haven't heard a good response yet.

What makes members of a wolf pack behave according to certain unwritten rules?

 

[Lady_X]

i think i understand...i mean from a personal perspective...i feel like my spiritual beliefs being ingrained into my being is why i feel such strong compassion for others...but i know others that are equally compassionate and loving people who consider themselves agnostic or atheist.

and...i'm not really just considering the afterlife. i believe it to be a life philosophy as well but others have their own philosophy that doesn't include a god or creator but their morals still guide them throughout life.

 

[A window to the soul]

I simply don't know what exists, and neither does anyone else,

How do you know what everyone else knows, if you don't know what exists? (Think about what you're saying.)

 

[Beorn]

What makes members of a wolf pack behave according to certain unwritten rules?

God

 

[erm]

When God actually exists and people are capable of aligning their values with God's.

How does that make them more than arbitrary mental entities?

Why align with God's values? Aren't God's values equally arbitrary as well?

 

[Lady_X]

where i've decided i'm at with it is just that it's impossible to know...but the enormity and complexity of the universe and everything we are incapable of seeing with our human eyes or hearing or grasping with our very limited minds...there's just so much that is possible and all one can do is theorize...so that's what i do...i think it could be this way or that...and certain things feel like truth to me and maybe that could be considered as faith...maybe it's not... but i don't let fear guide me and i don't follow anyone or anything blindly.

 

[Nicodemus]

God

Is killing wrong for wolfs, too?

i believe it to be a life philosophy as well but others have their own philosophy that doesn't include a god or creator but their morals still guide them throughout life.

That is because morality is just a set of fuzzy rules to guide you through and ensure your survival in social situations. These rules, I believe, stem from different places: 1) mirror neurons which enable you to see the world from another's perspective (probably the origin of the Golden Rule), 2) socialisation/culture, 3) genes, 4) individual reflections.

 

[Lady_X]

maybe...all i can go on is what feels right to me and be glad i guess that there are laws in place to protect me from others who have different sorts of feelings that tell them it's right to rape or kill me...ha...so rather or not that's my spiritual self inside me or learned social rules or whatever else i'm glad it's there or we'd be livin in complete mayhem.

 

[You]

Religion isn't the problem. People are.

 

[freeeekyyy]

How does a value get instilled into the universe any more than what you conceive happens in a purely materialistic one, even with god?

Because God is the value.

 

[Nicodemus]

Because God is the value.

How exactly is god the value? Can you elaborate a little?

 

[erm]

Because God is the value.

How does that differ from saying "because electricity is the value"? Or any other object one can think of?

I guess this relates to the point that, the only necessary difference between a universe with a god and a universe without, is just that. Anything that's not a god can be in either universe. That includes any type of value (even if you rename a value "God", or vice versa, which is semantics). As such I don't see how having a god changes the nature of values any more than can be done without a god.

Materialistic universes are more restricted than just atheistic universes, but Materialists believe in values, obviously, so there's no reason they couldn't believe in this other kind of value, just as some non-Materialists do. Not to say these special values actually exist, but that adding a god does not help explain the nature of these values or whether they exist (or even if they can exist). More broadly, adding anything non-material does not help explain them either.

 

[Mole]

I don't believe in astrology but I don't give myself a special name because I don't believe in astrology. And in the same way it is silly to give a special name to those who don't believe in theism.

We don't call those who don't believe in astrology, 'astrology atheists', just as we don't call those who don't believe in MBTI, 'MBTI atheists. And yet those who don't believe in theism are called 'atheists'.

And 'atheist' is a highly pejorative word, up there with 'heretic' and 'apostate'.

 

[Nicodemus]

I don't believe in astrology but I don't give myself a special name because I don't believe in astrology. And in the same way it is silly to give a special name to those who don't believe in theism.

We don't call those who don't believe in astrology, 'astrology atheists', just as we don't call those who don't believe in MBTI, 'MBTI atheists. And yet those who don't believe in theism are called 'atheists'.

And 'atheist' is a highly pejorative word, up there with 'heretic' and 'apostate'.

The reason is simple: It is, though it should not be, a deviation from the standard. We note that which is special.

 

[xisnotx]

How do you know what everyone else knows, if you don't know what exists? (Think about what you're saying.)

He doesn't know what they know..he knows what they can't know.

 

[A window to the soul]

He doesn't know what they know..he knows what they can't know.

Okay. How does he know what they can't know, if he doesn't know what exists?