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Atheists:

Do you think the world would be better if everyone were an atheist?

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 27.5%
  • No

    Votes: 52 57.1%
  • Other - please explain

    Votes: 14 15.4%

  • Total voters
    91

rav3n

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Suffering and ugliness is present in this image and others like it. But, that is not only what is present. There is a reason why such images undeniably bring hope to millions.
Perhaps so. But that's not what Intricate Mystic has stated which was what my post was addressing. As well, are you so certain that the atheistic artists that IM is so quick to impugn, don't have any underlying messages they're also attempting to impart on the populace? Do you know for fact that in 2011 years from now, one or more of these artists won't be revered by millions or billions as pioneers of [insert theme]?

Take a stance. I don't argue against Theist art or make any judgments about it if that's other people's thing. But I do draw the line at the blatant hypocrisy displayed when it's theist art vs. atheist art.
 

tinker683

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I for one am still waiting for the connection between atheists (solely by virtue of their atheism) and some seemingly incapability of grasping what is "beautiful" and "hopeful" and "positive" :confused:

I really don't understand what one has to do with the other.
 

Nicodemus

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I for one am still waiting for the connection between atheists (solely by virtue of their atheism) and some seemingly incapability of grasping what is "beautiful" and "hopeful" and "positive" :confused:

I really don't understand what one has to do with the other.
It is all about the difference whether something is beautiful or whether you just find it beautiful.
 

erm

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It's not that atheists can't love truth and beauty. It's that they have no reason to love truth and beauty. It's just a preference.

Not loving beauty is a contradiction, unless you are trying to make it a thing outside of the mind experiencing it, which it isn't.

There's no direct reason to love truth, theist or no, until you make a framework to do it through.

To put it like it normally is: If there can be something with god, there can be that same thing without god. There is nothing, beyond god itself, that need rely on god to exist.

To put that principle in negative form, and in more relevant context, the existence of god does not make any values objective. We know through observation that they are not objective, so god, if it exists, hasn't made them so.
 

tinker683

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It is all about the difference whether something is beautiful or whether you just find it beautiful.

Would you mind elaborating on this? I'm still not following :(

(Sorry if I'm being heinously Sensorish right now, but Ni and Ne are not at all my strong suits I'm afraid).
 

ZPowers

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It is all about the difference whether something is beautiful or whether you just find it beautiful.

The difference to me tinker: Either you, personally, feel something is beautiful or good or something higher than you ordains it to be beautiful. The thing higher than you personally feels it to be beautiful or good, because there is no other basis than the arbitrary whims of the higher being. Basically, it adds another step but doesn't avoid the same conclusion. Either morality and beauty are the baseless assertions of a man or they are the baseless assertions of God.

Unless beauty and morality are above God, in which case there is an Uber-God, which also needs a higher source to make beauty and morality mean anything besides baseless subjective ideas, ad infinity.

To me, it's a way of making no difference seem like a difference.
 

erm

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The difference to me tinker: Either you, personally, feel something is beautiful or good or something higher than you ordains it to be beautiful. The thing higher than you personally feels it to be beautiful or good, because there is no other basis than the arbitrary whims of the higher being. Basically, it adds another step but doesn't avoid the same conclusion. Either morality and beauty are the baseless assertations of a man or they are the baseless assertations of God.

Unless beauty and morality are above God, in which case there is an Uber-God, which also needs a higher source to make beauty and morality mean anything besides baseless subjective ideas, ad infinity.

To me, it's a way of making no difference seem like a difference.

I agree with the conclusion but not the reasoning.

A god of this sort presumably has the power to make something absolute and non-arbitrary, unlike a person. No chain is required.

That doesn't mean our observations that such values are subjective, that we have found no basis for them outside of the human mind, false. They'd still be true if this god exists, meaning it made values arbitrary.
 

tinker683

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The difference to me tinker: Either you, personally, feel something is beautiful or good or something higher than you ordains it to be beautiful. The thing higher than you personally feels it to be beautiful or good, because there is no other basis than the arbitrary whims of the higher being. Basically, it adds another step but doesn't avoid the same conclusion. Either morality and beauty are the baseless assertations of a man or they are the baseless assertations of God.

Unless beauty and morality are above God, in which case there is an Uber-God, which also needs a higher source to make beauty and morality mean anything besides baseless subjective ideas, ad infinity.

To me, it's a way of making no difference seem like a difference.

After reading this response and looking over the thread that was linked, I have to say I had a slight feeling he was going in this direction. Ugh.

Forget I asked :doh:
 

GZA

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I think there are some Atheists who would be heart broken if everyone became Atheist. They would have no one to look down on and feel superior too! It would be tragic.
 

ZPowers

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I agree with the conclusion but not the reasoning.

A god of this sort presumably has the power to make something absolute and non-arbitrary, unlike a person. No chain is required.
If God says "killing and skinning babies is now moral", then it is, by the grace of God, moral. Every aspect, from the mindset of the prepetrator to the baby's experience, can be the same, but it is now moral because God with his power makes it so. Now, maybe it can make morality and what it wants is now so, but where in this equation is God's morality not arbitrary morality?

At the same time, skinning is immoral because, well, God says so. Here is a being that can say whatever the fuck it wants and make it true. How does that distance truth or subjective ideas from the random whims of God, based on nothing at all?
 
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Case in point, honey coating reality. Which one of us is really trying to deny our humanity.

On an off note, I recommend that you read Anton LaVey's The Satanic Bible. That dude sure likes to embrace his own humanity and all the urges that comes along with it.

How is calling people's attention to the suffering of others "honey coating reality"?

I believe Lavey's book is about a "life focused on self-indulgence". I am a Christian, therefore I reject Satan, all his works, and have no interest in reading a book promoting a Satanic philosophy of life. Leading that sort of life is death.

It appears that ugliness, suffering and hopeless artforms don't solely reside with atheists. Which came first, the cart or the horse? How often do you see this symbol of suffering and martyrdom depicted in theist art or pretty much stamped indelibly...everywhere?

jesus-christ-crucifixion-530.jpg

This depicts suffering beyond belief but it is beautiful and full of hope. It is beautiful because Christ's death as a healthy man around the age of 30 could have been avoided, yet he chose to undergo unimaginable pain, suffering, humiliation, rejection, and loneliness so that we can be forgiven for our sins. It was the ultimate act of selflessness.... the antithesis of a "life focused on self-indulgence". It is full of hope because Christ died but rose from the dead. He was resurrected and triumphed over death for eternity. He is alive and present in the here-and-now of our lives if we open our hearts, minds, and souls to him.
 

erm

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If God says "killing and skinning babies is now moral", then it is, by the grace of God, moral. Every aspect, from the mindset of the prepetrator to the baby's experience, can be the same, but it is now moral because God with his power makes it so. Now, maybe it can make morality and what it wants is now so, but where in this equation is God's morality not arbitrary morality?

I know what you are saying, whatever the foundation of absolute morality is, god can change it, so it is entirely based on whatever god wants it to be. It is in effect based on nothing, as it will be absolute no matter what god makes moral. So it would be an absolute (in effect everywhere) yet arbitrary (without a reasonable or consistent foundation) morality.

I've seen many say god has made it eternally good, and thus can no longer change it, or even that god could never change it in the first place (meaning it is indeed more powerful than god). I've seen people say it is arbitrary from god's perspective, but not for humans because god has made it objectively good (so rejecting your premise that nothing changes about the situation other than god's whim). You can also say god is beyond logic so can do whatever it wants, meaning the very tool we are using in this debate has been rendered useless, which most don't lean on because it also means god can force everyone into paradise without violating free-will and similar problems for non-Abrahamic theistic gods. It's essentially impossible to think about a being of that power.
 

iwakar

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I think there are some Atheists who would be heart broken if everyone became Atheist. They would have no one to look down on and feel superior too! It would be tragic.

The sweeping judgments and dismissals are fast and furious in this thread.
 

erm

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The sweeping judgments and dismissals are fast and furious in this thread.

There probably are some atheists who enjoy looking down on theists and feel superior to them, much like vice versa. It would be a sweeping judgement to say that isn't so.
 

rav3n

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This depicts suffering beyond belief but it is beautiful and full of hope. It is beautiful because Christ's death as a healthy man around the age of 30 could have been avoided, yet he chose to undergo unimaginable pain, suffering, humiliation, rejection, and loneliness so that we can be forgiven for our sins. It was the ultimate act of selflessness.... the antithesis of a "life focused on self-indulgence". It is full of hope because Christ died but rose from the dead. He was resurrected and triumphed over death for eternity. He is alive and present in the here-and-now of our lives if we open our hearts, minds, and souls to him.
What I see is some dude being tortured with millions of people celebrating his death as a martyr. To me martyrdom is as equally selfish as suicide since you don't have to live through the fallout of your death and see the pain in the eyes of people who loved you.

So now, where do we stand? You believe torture is beautiful and I find it gross.

Here's a link to a Buddhist Monk setting himself on fire to bring attention to the repressive policies of the Catholic Diem regime that controlled the South Vietnamese government in 1963. Is this beautiful too since it's symbolic of [insert theist (buddhist) reasons]? Millions of people also revere this monk for his martyrdom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E37cMtCrKoA
 

erm

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Two things.

Arclight, people in this thread started with I.M. in defense of themselves. Saying they do value what s/he claims they didn't. It's just as easy to project noble intentions onto them as it is sinister ones. They could be trying to enlighten, make happier, or acting on jealousy and spite. They could be doing it out of pure curiousity.

Jenaphor, Buddhism is not theistic. It's only slightly contradictory to be a theistic Buddhist, as the only anti-theistic doctrine is the encouragement of apatheism, that whether god exists or not doesn't matter (i.e. if you focus on who or what fired the poison arrow, or where it came from, you will die of the poison before getting your answer. Instead focus on curing the poison.)

EDIT: I hadn't read the above post when I wrote this.
 

Gloriana

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Yeah, this is why I tend not to bother with threads on religion or lack thereof. It just goes on and on, the same stuff over and over again, until people just give up or it gets so vicious it has to be shut down by a mod.
 

rav3n

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Jenaphor, Buddhism is not theistic. It's only slightly contradictory to be a theistic Buddhist, as the only anti-theistic doctrine is the encouragement of apatheism, that whether god exists or not doesn't matter (i.e. if you focus on who or what fired the poison arrow, or where it came from, you will die of the poison before getting your answer. Instead focus on curing the poison.)
Not going to debate about Buddhism. The concept remains the same. If depictions of some dude being tortured are beautiful due to the symbolic nature of their martyrdom then it would be logical and rational to believe the same of another martyr who's set himself on fire for his cause and beliefs.

The other argument previously presented that IM completely ignored, was that who's to say the artwork created by the atheists she's so quick to impugn, aren't symbolic of [insert belief or cause].
 
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