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View Poll Results: Do you think the world would be better if everyone were an atheist?

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Thread: Atheists:

  1. #71
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    I think there are some Atheists who would be heart broken if everyone became Atheist. They would have no one to look down on and feel superior too! It would be tragic.

  2. #72
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I agree with the conclusion but not the reasoning.

    A god of this sort presumably has the power to make something absolute and non-arbitrary, unlike a person. No chain is required.
    If God says "killing and skinning babies is now moral", then it is, by the grace of God, moral. Every aspect, from the mindset of the prepetrator to the baby's experience, can be the same, but it is now moral because God with his power makes it so. Now, maybe it can make morality and what it wants is now so, but where in this equation is God's morality not arbitrary morality?

    At the same time, skinning is immoral because, well, God says so. Here is a being that can say whatever the fuck it wants and make it true. How does that distance truth or subjective ideas from the random whims of God, based on nothing at all?
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  3. #73
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Within View Post
    Case in point, honey coating reality. Which one of us is really trying to deny our humanity.

    On an off note, I recommend that you read Anton LaVey's The Satanic Bible. That dude sure likes to embrace his own humanity and all the urges that comes along with it.
    How is calling people's attention to the suffering of others "honey coating reality"?

    I believe Lavey's book is about a "life focused on self-indulgence". I am a Christian, therefore I reject Satan, all his works, and have no interest in reading a book promoting a Satanic philosophy of life. Leading that sort of life is death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    It appears that ugliness, suffering and hopeless artforms don't solely reside with atheists. Which came first, the cart or the horse? How often do you see this symbol of suffering and martyrdom depicted in theist art or pretty much stamped indelibly...everywhere?

    This depicts suffering beyond belief but it is beautiful and full of hope. It is beautiful because Christ's death as a healthy man around the age of 30 could have been avoided, yet he chose to undergo unimaginable pain, suffering, humiliation, rejection, and loneliness so that we can be forgiven for our sins. It was the ultimate act of selflessness.... the antithesis of a "life focused on self-indulgence". It is full of hope because Christ died but rose from the dead. He was resurrected and triumphed over death for eternity. He is alive and present in the here-and-now of our lives if we open our hearts, minds, and souls to him.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    If God says "killing and skinning babies is now moral", then it is, by the grace of God, moral. Every aspect, from the mindset of the prepetrator to the baby's experience, can be the same, but it is now moral because God with his power makes it so. Now, maybe it can make morality and what it wants is now so, but where in this equation is God's morality not arbitrary morality?
    I know what you are saying, whatever the foundation of absolute morality is, god can change it, so it is entirely based on whatever god wants it to be. It is in effect based on nothing, as it will be absolute no matter what god makes moral. So it would be an absolute (in effect everywhere) yet arbitrary (without a reasonable or consistent foundation) morality.

    I've seen many say god has made it eternally good, and thus can no longer change it, or even that god could never change it in the first place (meaning it is indeed more powerful than god). I've seen people say it is arbitrary from god's perspective, but not for humans because god has made it objectively good (so rejecting your premise that nothing changes about the situation other than god's whim). You can also say god is beyond logic so can do whatever it wants, meaning the very tool we are using in this debate has been rendered useless, which most don't lean on because it also means god can force everyone into paradise without violating free-will and similar problems for non-Abrahamic theistic gods. It's essentially impossible to think about a being of that power.

  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    I think there are some Atheists who would be heart broken if everyone became Atheist. They would have no one to look down on and feel superior too! It would be tragic.
    The sweeping judgments and dismissals are fast and furious in this thread.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    T

    The sweeping judgments and dismissals are fast and furious in this thread.
    There probably are some atheists who enjoy looking down on theists and feel superior to them, much like vice versa. It would be a sweeping judgement to say that isn't so.

  7. #77
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    This depicts suffering beyond belief but it is beautiful and full of hope. It is beautiful because Christ's death as a healthy man around the age of 30 could have been avoided, yet he chose to undergo unimaginable pain, suffering, humiliation, rejection, and loneliness so that we can be forgiven for our sins. It was the ultimate act of selflessness.... the antithesis of a "life focused on self-indulgence". It is full of hope because Christ died but rose from the dead. He was resurrected and triumphed over death for eternity. He is alive and present in the here-and-now of our lives if we open our hearts, minds, and souls to him.
    What I see is some dude being tortured with millions of people celebrating his death as a martyr. To me martyrdom is as equally selfish as suicide since you don't have to live through the fallout of your death and see the pain in the eyes of people who loved you.

    So now, where do we stand? You believe torture is beautiful and I find it gross.

    Here's a link to a Buddhist Monk setting himself on fire to bring attention to the repressive policies of the Catholic Diem regime that controlled the South Vietnamese government in 1963. Is this beautiful too since it's symbolic of [insert theist (buddhist) reasons]? Millions of people also revere this monk for his martyrdom.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E37cMtCrKoA

  8. #78
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    Two things.

    Arclight, people in this thread started with I.M. in defense of themselves. Saying they do value what s/he claims they didn't. It's just as easy to project noble intentions onto them as it is sinister ones. They could be trying to enlighten, make happier, or acting on jealousy and spite. They could be doing it out of pure curiousity.

    Jenaphor, Buddhism is not theistic. It's only slightly contradictory to be a theistic Buddhist, as the only anti-theistic doctrine is the encouragement of apatheism, that whether god exists or not doesn't matter (i.e. if you focus on who or what fired the poison arrow, or where it came from, you will die of the poison before getting your answer. Instead focus on curing the poison.)

    EDIT: I hadn't read the above post when I wrote this.

  9. #79
    Patron Saint Of Smileys Gloriana's Avatar
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    Yeah, this is why I tend not to bother with threads on religion or lack thereof. It just goes on and on, the same stuff over and over again, until people just give up or it gets so vicious it has to be shut down by a mod.
    "Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get, but if you work really hard, and you're kind, amazing things will happen. I'm telling you...amazing things will happen" --Conan O'Brien

  10. #80
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Jenaphor, Buddhism is not theistic. It's only slightly contradictory to be a theistic Buddhist, as the only anti-theistic doctrine is the encouragement of apatheism, that whether god exists or not doesn't matter (i.e. if you focus on who or what fired the poison arrow, or where it came from, you will die of the poison before getting your answer. Instead focus on curing the poison.)
    Not going to debate about Buddhism. The concept remains the same. If depictions of some dude being tortured are beautiful due to the symbolic nature of their martyrdom then it would be logical and rational to believe the same of another martyr who's set himself on fire for his cause and beliefs.

    The other argument previously presented that IM completely ignored, was that who's to say the artwork created by the atheists she's so quick to impugn, aren't symbolic of [insert belief or cause].

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