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View Poll Results: Do you think the world would be better if everyone were an atheist?

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  • Yes

    25 25.25%
  • No

    60 60.61%
  • Other - please explain

    14 14.14%
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Thread: Atheists:

  1. #61
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I am with you Beefeater, on this small ground you chose to defend.

  2. #62
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Suffering and ugliness is present in this image and others like it. But, that is not only what is present. There is a reason why such images undeniably bring hope to millions.
    Perhaps so. But that's not what Intricate Mystic has stated which was what my post was addressing. As well, are you so certain that the atheistic artists that IM is so quick to impugn, don't have any underlying messages they're also attempting to impart on the populace? Do you know for fact that in 2011 years from now, one or more of these artists won't be revered by millions or billions as pioneers of [insert theme]?

    Take a stance. I don't argue against Theist art or make any judgments about it if that's other people's thing. But I do draw the line at the blatant hypocrisy displayed when it's theist art vs. atheist art.

  3. #63
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    I for one am still waiting for the connection between atheists (solely by virtue of their atheism) and some seemingly incapability of grasping what is "beautiful" and "hopeful" and "positive" :confused:

    I really don't understand what one has to do with the other.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  4. #64
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I for one am still waiting for the connection between atheists (solely by virtue of their atheism) and some seemingly incapability of grasping what is "beautiful" and "hopeful" and "positive" :confused:

    I really don't understand what one has to do with the other.
    It is all about the difference whether something is beautiful or whether you just find it beautiful.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    It's not that atheists can't love truth and beauty. It's that they have no reason to love truth and beauty. It's just a preference.
    Not loving beauty is a contradiction, unless you are trying to make it a thing outside of the mind experiencing it, which it isn't.

    There's no direct reason to love truth, theist or no, until you make a framework to do it through.

    To put it like it normally is: If there can be something with god, there can be that same thing without god. There is nothing, beyond god itself, that need rely on god to exist.

    To put that principle in negative form, and in more relevant context, the existence of god does not make any values objective. We know through observation that they are not objective, so god, if it exists, hasn't made them so.

  6. #66
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It is all about the difference whether something is beautiful or whether you just find it beautiful.
    Would you mind elaborating on this? I'm still not following

    (Sorry if I'm being heinously Sensorish right now, but Ni and Ne are not at all my strong suits I'm afraid).
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  7. #67
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Would you mind elaborating on this? I'm still not following

    (Sorry if I'm being heinously Sensorish right now, but Ni and Ne are not at all my strong suits I'm afraid).
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1489679

  8. #68
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It is all about the difference whether something is beautiful or whether you just find it beautiful.
    The difference to me tinker: Either you, personally, feel something is beautiful or good or something higher than you ordains it to be beautiful. The thing higher than you personally feels it to be beautiful or good, because there is no other basis than the arbitrary whims of the higher being. Basically, it adds another step but doesn't avoid the same conclusion. Either morality and beauty are the baseless assertions of a man or they are the baseless assertions of God.

    Unless beauty and morality are above God, in which case there is an Uber-God, which also needs a higher source to make beauty and morality mean anything besides baseless subjective ideas, ad infinity.

    To me, it's a way of making no difference seem like a difference.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    The difference to me tinker: Either you, personally, feel something is beautiful or good or something higher than you ordains it to be beautiful. The thing higher than you personally feels it to be beautiful or good, because there is no other basis than the arbitrary whims of the higher being. Basically, it adds another step but doesn't avoid the same conclusion. Either morality and beauty are the baseless assertations of a man or they are the baseless assertations of God.

    Unless beauty and morality are above God, in which case there is an Uber-God, which also needs a higher source to make beauty and morality mean anything besides baseless subjective ideas, ad infinity.

    To me, it's a way of making no difference seem like a difference.
    I agree with the conclusion but not the reasoning.

    A god of this sort presumably has the power to make something absolute and non-arbitrary, unlike a person. No chain is required.

    That doesn't mean our observations that such values are subjective, that we have found no basis for them outside of the human mind, false. They'd still be true if this god exists, meaning it made values arbitrary.

  10. #70
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    The difference to me tinker: Either you, personally, feel something is beautiful or good or something higher than you ordains it to be beautiful. The thing higher than you personally feels it to be beautiful or good, because there is no other basis than the arbitrary whims of the higher being. Basically, it adds another step but doesn't avoid the same conclusion. Either morality and beauty are the baseless assertations of a man or they are the baseless assertations of God.

    Unless beauty and morality are above God, in which case there is an Uber-God, which also needs a higher source to make beauty and morality mean anything besides baseless subjective ideas, ad infinity.

    To me, it's a way of making no difference seem like a difference.
    After reading this response and looking over the thread that was linked, I have to say I had a slight feeling he was going in this direction. Ugh.

    Forget I asked
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

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