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View Poll Results: Do you think the world would be better if everyone were an atheist?

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  • Yes

    25 25.25%
  • No

    60 60.61%
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Thread: Atheists:

  1. #221
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    my reasons for believing in God are mostly because I'm afraid of the consequences of not believing and being wrong
    Pascel's Wager.

    Questions for you about this line of thinking:

    1) Are you sure the God you are choosing to believe in is the right one?
    2) Are you living correctly according to the tenets of this deity? (I ask because a lot of the more "traditional" religions takes a dim view of homosexuality)
    3) Do you believe that this deity will accept your faith not because it is based on genuine piety but rather because you just dont want to be wrong and want to avoid getting spanked for worshiping an idol (which could potential be happening anyway, see question #1 )
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  2. #222
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Pascel's Wager.
    Questions for you about this line of thinking:
    1) Are you sure the God you are choosing to believe in is the right one?
    Judaism, Islam and Christianity all have the same God, but Christianity also has Jesus, so it's the safest bet

    2) Are you living correctly according to the tenets of this deity? (I ask because a lot of the more "traditional" religions takes a dim view of homosexuality)
    all that is required to go to heaven is to accept Jesus as for dying for your sins.

    3) Do you believe that this deity will accept your faith not because it is based on genuine piety but rather because you just dont want to be wrong and want to avoid getting spanked for worshiping an idol (which could potential be happening anyway, see question #1 )
    yes
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  3. #223
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I'm not really big on Pascal's Wager.

    Why? Because it's merely "fire insurance."

    My personal opinion is that spirituality has to be a passion pursued out of belief, not an attempt to play the odds / game the system / save one's bacon. And any deity worth following wouldn't honor someone following her or him simply to avoid punishment. Who wants to spend an eternity of time with people who are just using you?

    It seems to be one of the basest of reasons to follow a particular faith. as an equivalent, why not just tell your spouse, "I actually don't love you nor want to really be with you; I just married you for the tax benefits and/or because I didn't want to be alone"?

    ...Heart-warming stuff there.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  4. #224
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not really big on Pascal's Wager.

    Why? Because it's merely "fire insurance."

    My personal opinion is that spirituality has to be a passion pursued out of belief, not an attempt to play the odds / game the system / save one's bacon. And any deity worth following wouldn't honor someone following her or him simply to avoid punishment. Who wants to spend an eternity of time with people who are just using you?

    It seems to be one of the basest of reasons to follow a particular faith. as an equivalent, why not just tell your spouse, "I actually don't love you nor want to really be with you; I just married you for the tax benefits and/or because I didn't want to be alone"?

    ...Heart-warming stuff there.
    avoiding higher taxes and avoiding the possibility can hardly be compared. believe it or not, self preservation is not a crime
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  5. #225
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    Judaism, Islam and Christianity all have the same God, but Christianity also has Jesus, so it's the safest bet
    The safest bet. What an interesting thing to say. Why is it the safest bet? With all the other religions out there, what makes the Abrahamic religions the most valid to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    all that is required to go to heaven is to accept Jesus as for dying for your sins.
    Sola Gratia my Protestant friend All the same, I can promise you there are some Christians who might tell you that while this is important, it's not quite enough and I know some other brand of theists who tell you that you are flat out wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    yes
    If you say so

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not really big on Pascal's Wager.

    Why? Because it's merely "fire insurance."
    Essentially.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    My personal opinion is that spirituality has to be a passion pursued out of belief, not an attempt to play the odds / game the system / save one's bacon. And any deity worth following wouldn't honor someone following her or him simply to avoid punishment. Who wants to spend an eternity of time with people who are just using you?

    It seems to be one of the basest of reasons to follow a particular faith. as an equivalent, why not just tell your spouse, "I actually don't love you nor want to really be with you; I just married you for the tax benefits and/or because I didn't want to be alone"?

    ...Heart-warming stuff there.
    Indeedy. My issue with Pascel's Wager is that it misses the whole point of Jesus's death and resurrection (a point some Christians might argue with me). He died to bring humanity closer to God, to show them a way to break the bonds of sin and live a godly live (assuming of course you subscribe to Christian thought).

    To then take his gift and say, "I'm going to go ahead and believe and worship you, but not because I genuinely believe in your existence or the gift of salvation you gave to me. No, it's because I might be wrong and I'd rather avoid the penalty box"

    Which might work (far be it from me to assume the motivations and desires of a supreme being) but it not only seems incredibly dishonest to me, but it just completely misses the point.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  6. #226
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    By that logic you would have to be a Muslim since Islam honors Jesus as a prophet but has Mohammed on top of that.


    In the immortal words of the great Ned Flanders: "I'm not a bad man. I don't drink or dance or swear. I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! I've even kept kosher, just to stay on the safe side. "
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  7. #227
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    avoiding higher taxes and avoiding the possibility can hardly be compared. believe it or not, self preservation is not a crime
    We're not talking about crimes. We're talking about relationships. You want a relationship with "God" or whatever who is supposed to promote love, connection, and sacrificial giving, then it shouldn't be treated like a self-directed business transaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Indeedy. My issue with Pascel's Wager is that it misses the whole point of Jesus's death and resurrection (a point some Christians might argue with me). He died to bring humanity closer to God, to show them a way to break the bonds of sin and live a godly live (assuming of course you subscribe to Christian thought).

    To then take his gift and say, "I'm going to go ahead and believe and worship you, but not because I genuinely believe in your existence or the gift of salvation you gave to me. No, it's because I might be wrong and I'd rather avoid the penalty box"

    Which might work (far be it from me to assume the motivations and desires of a supreme being) but it not only seems incredibly dishonest to me, but it just completely misses the point.
    Yup, you get what I'm saying.

    And if it would work, then it wouldn't be a deity I'd even see a point in following. I might do lip service to the bare minimum possible, but otherwise my heart and mind will be elsewhere.

    Pascal's Wager caters to the lowest aspect of human behavior.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #228
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    my reasons for believing in God are mostly because I'm afraid of the consequences of not believing and being wrong
    The realization of that is what made me decide that I'm an atheist. I decided that fear is just not a good enough reason to believe in a higher power.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    The realization of that is what made me decide that I'm an atheist. I decided that fear is just not a good enough reason to believe in a higher power.
    +1, I am an agnostic bordering on atheism for pretty much the same reason. Although many of the religions have moral guidelines I respect, it just seems arbitrary sometimes with the typical "the saved vs. the damned" dichotomy.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    my reasons for believing in God are mostly because I'm afraid of the consequences of not believing and being wrong
    But what if you happen to believe in the wrong god? Then you didn't only lose heaven, but also time and energy on it... What if you restrict from sex to please our Christian god, you die and you meet a fertility godess who's very angry at you? You didn't only fail to please the godess, you also missed out on the sex...
    (okay, didn't see the follow-up posts. Tinker said it well. It's indeed Pascal's wager; and I just picked one problem out of it)
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