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Thread: Faith vs. Logic

  1. #71
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric View Post
    FYI I used to be a Buddhist and actually deeply believed in nirvana. Now, I'm more of an evolutionist guy.
    Buddhism is evolution.



    Nice to see you again, Electric - from INTPc?

  2. #72
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    No, it isn't. If you change your belief, then you didn't have faith in that belief.

    Do you own a dictionary?
    Nowhere in any of the definitions that I have read does it say that faith in something can never change. You can perfectly have faith in something today, and not tomorrow. Nothing in the definition of faith precludes that.

    Please show me a definition of faith that says it cannot change.

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    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric View Post
    FYI I used to be a Buddhist and actually deeply believed in nirvana.
    And yet you would describe this "deep belief" as "fluffy marshmallows" ?

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    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    If I:

    1- perceive the possible existence of "God"

    2- decide to experiment on the basis that my perception might be true

    3- repeatedly obtain the same result to the same experiment

    4- conclude that there must be something to my perception of "God"

    Which one am I using? Faith or logic?
    If your experiment in (2) uses sound logic, then there's no need to interject faith. You're not in the realm of science.

  5. #75
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Nowhere in any of the definitions that I have read does it say that faith in something can never change. You can perfectly have faith in something today, and not tomorrow. Nothing in the definition of faith precludes that.

    Please show me a definition of faith that says it cannot change.
    The word "change" don't have to be in the definition for it to be an inherent part of the meaning of the word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxford
    faith |fāθ|
    noun
    1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something
    If you trust something confidently and completely, then it won't change, otherwise, you didn't really trust it completely and confidently. There was some wiggle room.

    QED: faith is rigid.
    we fukin won boys

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    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    Science can't disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns on Mars, either. But in science, absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
    I would disagree with that, and say that your conclusion is illogical. Absence of evidence is exactly what it means; when there is no evidence, there are no affirmative conclusions to draw. Does the fact that short-tailed albatross haven't been seen in California in 20 years mean they've gone extinct? Absolutely not. It just means what it says: that no one has seen them yet. Will they ever see them? Who knows. Should you believe that they are really there now? No.

  7. #77
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    If your experiment in (2) uses sound logic, then there's no need to interject faith. You're not in the realm of science.
    What do you mean exactly?

    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    If you trust something confidently and completely, then it won't change, otherwise, you didn't really trust it completely and confidently. There was some wiggle room.

    QED: faith is rigid.
    Little kids have absolute faith in their parents, ie they trust them confidently and completely. Do you still have faith in your parents?

  8. #78
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    What do you mean exactly?
    You have a theory that god exists. You design an experiment based on that hypothesis, that tests the merits of your theory. Assuming the experiment is well-designed, why would you need faith?

    Compare it to an experiment to test the absolute speed of light. You design an experiment to test that theory. If your experiment is sound, then you've proven that the speed of light is absolute. Do you still need to have faith that the speed of light is absolute? No.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    You have a theory that god exists. You design an experiment based on that hypothesis, that tests the merits of your theory. Assuming the experiment is well-designed, why would you need faith?
    Ah, I see.

    The problem is that my experiment was not aimed at determining whether God exists or not. That's not what it tests. So that's not what it ends up "proving".

    To use your speed of light analogy: it would be more something like: "if the speed of light is absolute, then this (whatever it is) must be true." And you then design an experiment to test for "this". Should the experiment be successful, you will have proved "this". But you still won't be able to argue that the speed of light is necessarily absolute, because A implies B does not imply that B implies A. However, you will have significantly reinforced the probability that the speed of light is indeed absolute.

    That's why my last step was to "conclude that there must be something to my perception of "God"". I didn't say "conclude that God exists", because that's not what the experiment "proved".

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    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Ah, I see.

    The problem is that my experiment was not aimed at determining whether God exists or not. That's not what it tests. So that's not what it ends up "proving".

    To use your speed of light analogy: it would be more something like: "if the speed of light is absolute, then this (whatever it is) must be true." And you then design an experiment to test for "this". Should the experiment be successful, you will have proved "this". But you still won't be able to argue that the speed of light is necessarily absolute, because A implies B does not imply that B implies A. However, you will have significantly reinforced the probability that the speed of light is indeed absolute.

    That's why my last step was to "conclude that there must be something to my perception of "God"". I didn't say "conclude that God exists", because that's not what the experiment "proved".
    Oh I see. In that case, why would it prove that "there's something to your perception" ? If it rain, I get wet. If I'm wet, does that mean it rained? Maybe I was in the shower. (With a girl!)

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