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  1. #21
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    "wow, what a novel statement"

    (is being constructive)
    Haven't read your post but I can guess its substance.. so..

    cogito ergo sum is like everything else based on assumptions, if one isn't an essentialist it means that the thinking goes on in the same place\system where perception occurs. From there on any statement made about the 'truth' is going to be flawed because the bases to reach the conclusion canno't truly be reached without the conclusion. So it's all just as based on assumption as "the sky is blue" or "doors are solid"
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #22
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    *reads your post*
    Also, if one assumes you start by the base , the 'thinking\percieving'.

    Questioning wether existence is related to perception and can be independant is interesting but can lead to some traps. For example, sure 'rocks exist' but do they percieve, that seems like a nudge in the right direction.. but nah, it leads to question how one can state perception reliably in the first place, does a stone percieve because 'I percieve' is carved upon it ?

    So here's the issue. Any model stating perception is going to rely on untestable internal states, so you can't actually prove anything you say is true.. Or you'd have to show that the internal state equals some physical, observable and replicable pattern. But that pattern would rely on the external world and empiricism rather than pretty math like and perfect base principle so it would follow that the statement of perception is also flawed and stuff.

    Basically as long as the system isn't perfectly closed there's no way to make any true statement (think 1+1=2 ), and perception is just as entangled a statement as existence.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Existence is far more than just perception.
    Nice point.
    ...Or, at least, potentially, it could be.

    @OP: I'm still not sure how a non-existent thinker/perceiver could think and perceive anything. To me, the question is not whether the thinker/perceiver exists, but whether what they think and percieve in any way reflects external reality outside of that awareness of self-will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nolla
    And even when saying this we are bound by the words we use. There is no reason to call it perceiving. It might be that this word doesn't correspond with what is at all. Actually we should not say anything of it. Thundering silence.
    Is there a difference between thundering silence in the absence of anything at all vs thundering silence in the choice to remain silent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Well as I see it, we can't ever be entirely sure that the world that we percieve objectively exists at all, considering that we are trapped within the realm of our subjectivity. But, there is no reason to assume that the external world isn't real, we just can't know 100%. Thus I take a will of assumption as my safeguard, that is I assume that this world that I perceive; real, dream, whatever; this world is my true world, I cannot doubt it because it is the only world that I know of, and that everything within is real to me.

    I have a door analogy that basically sums this up:

    I suppose an analogy that might describe this better is if I imagine myself in a room with one door, I have always lived in this room and it is the only room that I know of. The door in the room has always been locked and there is no way to open it. Now it is possible that there is another room on the other side of that door. For all I know that other room could be the "real" room, and this one is nothing more than an imitation of it. It could also be possible that there is another room with another door, and another room beyond that etc. It could also be possible that the is nothing behind the door, that it's just part of the wall. But since I can never fully know what is on the other side of the door I can only conclude that the room that I inhabit now is the "real" room, while acknowledging the possibility that there are other rooms beyond this one.
    Yes, I consider that a "practical approach" to this unanswerable question of what is real.

    There are stipulations and constraints and frameworks I accept about the world because I've chosen to engage rather than doing nothing, even while admitting that my perception of reality might be flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I saw a kid poke a frog with a stick. It was one of the worst things I've seen. It was like all of his guts came out of his mouth. The second thing I know next to existence is this feeling of identifying with the frog. I regret that I didn't stop the kid in time. Wussed out, I guess. I've tried responding since to others who would do that. I want them to feel themselves. And there's no way to go about it than by my enforcing my sense of existence and feeling on to them, just like they're doing. Which brings me to the third thing that's real. Power. It's almost a party now. I wonder what else I need to balance this shit out.
    One of the large leaps I experienced, existentially and spiritually, in my life that added depth to my intellectual approach to the world was this:

    In the face of not being able to prove what is ultimately real, in the end the only thing that truly can empower me is the choice of what to value and live for.

    It's a choice, based on my awareness of myself and what resonates with me.

    I choose what is most real.
    I chose what is most worth valuing in the world.
    I chose what I shall do to pursue and encourage such values in the world.

    The intellectual framework gives me a perspective I can use to build what I perceive as a consistent and relevant understanding and engagement of the world as I ultimately perceive it, but even the the intellectual approach is still a choice on my part.

    It was immensely terrifying, yet liberating, when I became aware of how much of my engagement of life was a choice rather than compulsory. I didn't really hit that until sometime in my 30's... slowly become aware of it, then sitting on the knowledge for awhile until I had steeled myself to embrace it without regret.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
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    @OP: I'm still not sure how a non-existent thinker/perceiver could think and perceive anything. To me, the question is not whether the thinker/perceiver exists, but whether what they think and percieve in any way reflects external reality outside of that awareness of self-will.
    I think I've made peace with the possibility that I'll never know if I do in fact perceive the world in accordance to reality. I don't know, to me that was (and still very much is) a scary thing to accept. I'll continue to strive for it (I find that I do it naturally), but my state of being is no longer dependent on how close I perceive myself to be to the perceived truth...or at least I have better control on how dependent it is..to an extent because it's still extremely easy to fall into the same "trap"..haha

    In the face of not being able to prove what is ultimately real, in the end the only thing that truly can empower me is the choice of what to value and live for.
    My assertion has more or less led me to this conclusion. I still have no idea what to value or 'live for' but at least I'm aware that I have that choice..more so than I was before at the very least..

    It was immensely terrifying, yet liberating, when I became aware of how much of my engagement of life was a choice rather than compulsory.
    I can relate. It's like I've realized the limitations of Ti. Ti is all I had..and now I know it's less than perfect. And I'm not sure where to go with that...it's terrifying yet I do have the sense of being liberated. I can also relate to "sitting on the knowledge"..I don't know what to do with this...

    Oh..and it doesn't seem to me that life gets any easier...just differently complex..
    Life is very complex. Very.

  5. #25
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Response to OP:

    What is doing the perceiving?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkenya View Post
    Any other conclusions that I draw from this are ultimately flawed. To assume they aren't is to assume that how I think is in accordance with perfection. It's almost arrogant.

    As humans we have developed systems to try to explain things. Religion, Science even what I'm trying to communicate to you...these are things that we have developed in order to make the world an easier place to live in.

    While this is useful, some people mistakenly believe that this system is so good that it actually is in accordance to "perfection". Yet it isn't. It can't be. We are flawed...we don't know truth/reality/perfection. The only thing we (I) do know is that "I perceive things to exist".

    Given that our perceptions are limited and we perceive things to be true that actually aren't...there is a chance that we don't exist...despite thinking that we do. All we (I) know is that "I perceive myself to exist."

    Thought? Comments? Critiques?
    You should become an Australian Aboriginal. They have only 42 chromosomes, which allows them to perceive the universe as a constantly changing organism which is one within themselves. Every particle moving, they feel tingle. Every transference of force or energy, they make a note of. They are in accord with perfection. *didgeridoo plays*

  7. #27
    Member Caesar's Avatar
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    As Nietzsche would say to the OP: there are no easy truths; you cannot be certain that it is you (or any entity) who perceive existence, or it is existence you're perceiving, or that something is perceived at all, however you define perception. Homo sapiens are such strange creatures. They always want to be sure of something and notice how there are never attempts to be unsure of something. As Nietzsche would say, again, uncertainty and appearances are the only "truths" in life. Am I sure of that? No.
    "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." - Oscar Wilde

  8. #28
    Senior Member Thisica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar View Post
    As Nietzsche would say to the OP: there are no easy truths; you cannot be certain that it is you (or any entity) who perceive existence, or it is existence you're perceiving, or that something is perceived at all, however you define perception. Homo sapiens are such strange creatures. They always want to be sure of something and notice how there are never attempts to be unsure of something. As Nietzsche would say, again, uncertainty and appearances are the only "truths" in life. Am I sure of that? No.
    Well...in that case, why philosophise? I don't see the merit of doing so, besides raising awareness of implicit assumptions. For the most part of our lives, these issues don't matter.
    “To explain all nature is too difficult a task for any one man or even for any one age. 'Tis much better to do a little with certainty, & leave the rest for others that come after you, than to explain all things by conjecture without making sure of any thing.”—Statement from unpublished notes for the Preface to the Opticks (1704) by Newton.

    What do you think about me? And for the darker side, here.

  9. #29
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    Well...in that case, why philosophise? I don't see the merit of doing so, besides raising awareness of implicit assumptions. For the most part of our lives, these issues don't matter.
    I don't have an answer for you. I have an answer for me. Because I must. I know no other way...perhaps that isn't justification enough for you. It is for me..

  10. #30
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I perceive that in the short time we live on this earth, asking ourselves wether or not we are real seems like a waste of time. If we are to question our very ability to existencify (lol is it a word? It is now!) empyrical evidence, there would logically be no answer for our questions, and we might as well stop breathing right now.

    However, if we so decide to assume that what we do perceive is infact a window into reality, then we can build on that and live our lives filled with adventurous endouvers and intellectual insights to cherish and to love. Until we die with a smile on our faces.

    I have spoken, thus I have perceived!
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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