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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by chachamaru View Post
    And by women, I mean white, middle class, American/"western" women.
    It is in no way limited to that demographic.

    It affects most people, but a lot of non-western women are pressured to look white and all sorts of other things. There's a lot less pressure on men, but there's a fair bit and it is increasing.

    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    one person saying someone isn't attractive doesn't mean there aren't identifiable patterns in attractiveness. there are many studies on biology and attractiveness that have been conducted all over the world with similar results; symmetry, pedomorphy, hip to waist ratio etc are linked to attractiveness in women, as i mentioned. evidence? i linked to a piece on the way attractiveness relates to fertility/hormones earlier. why are beauty standards to use your term a 'human bias'? not by accident. they're linked to biology.

    there is also much literature on the cultural bias of iq tests if you care to investigate.
    Identifiable trends =/= objective. Surely you know this? As I never said there weren't identifiable trends (nor did I even suggest it).

    They aren't studies on biology and attractiveness. Just attractiveness. Read them again. You'd need to isolate environmental variables to get biology in the equation. They find trends in attractiveness, you then say it is biologically hard-wired. That latter claim requires evidence.

    As I already said to you, human bias is involved in nearly everything. I'm well aware of the biases around IQ tests, but IQ tests aren't a bias in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I am going to differ a bit in that I think, from individual to individual, beauty is not universal, but we can look at broader patterns across cultures and see trends in beauty. Human insecurity also seems universal, so it's likely that the pump gets primed in women based on the cultural standards of the day; the insecurity persists, but it looks different from culture to culture. Same thing with standards of beauty.
    Well the only bit I see you differing with me on is insecurity being universal. I assume you don't mean universal literally? I'd need to know more detail before I can respond.

  2. #72
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think there are many things now that we can provide in-depth explanation for that, in the past, were relegated necessarily to the realm of superstition and religious belief, yes, in order to provide a comforting explanation. And I think maybe we will discover even more things as we examine the human mind, and see how cells and organisms develop, and be able to recreate various natural processes that we yet cannot, that will answer many more questions.

    But typically none of that answers the question, "Why" or "What if?" Faith was never supposed to be an antagonist of "reality," it was supposed to be a parallel and integrated frame via which to view and experience it. it offers explanations that provide meaning.

    I think you'd be pretty hard-pressed, if I just go by the contents of your arguments I've seen in this thread, to go the distance with Aquinas or even Kant. Don't ask me what that means.
    You lost me a bit there near the end, but I know religion and faith offers easy answers to the big "Why?" questions, and "How did it all begin?". But they are just guesses, right? I can make a guess about a purple crocodile creating the universe and watching over us, and I'm just as valid as any another supernatural guesswork.

    But human reasoning and science can potentially answer these big questions one day, and until it has, it has the humility to say "we don't know what occurred before the Big Bang just yet" or "we don't know how this all began, or even if there was a beginning". But I feel like every day science is pushing further on the How, Why, When, Where, etc... of the world and universe.

    And I don't see faith or religion as making the same kind of progress in the world, aside from acting like it knows the unknowable, and all the good charity work Christian organizations do. And how it can really guilt trip you into being a good person, and treating people well.

  3. #73
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    yowzer.

    erm, what do you suppose motivates this 'human bias' in relation to attractiveness if not biology?

  4. #74
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    You lost me a bit there near the end, but I know religion and faith offers easy answers to the big "Why?" questions, and "How did it all begin?". But they are just guesses, right? I can make a guess about a purple crocodile creating the universe and watching over us, and I'm just as valid as another supernatural guesswork.
    It depends on what frame you're operating. Some explanations certainly seem more "responsible" than others -- more coherent, more related to human experience, etc. -- and I think you need to use more nuance in that comparison.

    But human reasoning and science can potentially answer these big questions one day,
    I don't think science has ever, ever, ever claimed to be able to answer the question 'why.' I'm not sure why you are deciding to assert that... except for the fact you believe it personally. Which is nice, if you have faith in that.

    and until it has, it has the humility to say "we don't know what occurred before the Big Bang just yet" or "how this all began". But I feel like every day science is pushing further on the How, Why, When, Where, etc... of the world.
    Again, science can never answer why.
    It can answer how, or what.
    History can answer who and when.
    Spirituality answers why.

    This is pretty basic stuff here.

    And I don't see faith or religion as making the same kind of progress in the world, aside from acting like it knows the unknowable, and all the good charity work Christian organizations do. And how it can really guilt trip you into being a good person, and treating people well.
    What sort of progress are you talking about? Are you actually reducing general-term "progress" to a subset of "progress," one that is the sort of progress that technology and science directly drives, and then claiming it as proof that technology is responsible for all progress?

    Obviously in some spheres, science is inadequate. Otherwise hundreds of thousands of young men wouldn't have died on the Beaches of Normandy, millions of Jews wouldn't have been the subject of scientific experiments, and Hiroshima wouldn't have had the shit blown out of it, with mothers and babies dying horribly with their skin peeled off. (For starters.) Science has no tools by which to comment on such matters. It's pretty clear there is a "moral/social form of progress" that directs how science is used, and we're still working on finding and following it.

    Anyway, this is a huge tangent, so we need to tie it back in to modesty, self-esteem, and women's body confidence -- or move these last few posts and continue it elsewhere.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #75
    Senior Member chachamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Indeedy. I mean, they have an entirely aisle dedicated to the concept in retail stores for goodness sakes.
    Does this really add to self esteem, though? Does it add to one's self worth?

    I doubt it... because it doesn't change what's underneath.
    a cat is fine too

  6. #76
    Senior Member chachamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    It is in no way limited to that demographic.

    It affects most people, but a lot of non-western women are pressured to look white and all sorts of other things. There's a lot less pressure on men, but there's a fair bit and it is increasing.
    Beauty, to a certain extent, is limited to cultural ideals.

    African American women, for example, have learned to embrace bigger women (full of curves). This is contrary to the white ideal of a waifish woman.
    a cat is fine too

  7. #77
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Anyway, this is a huge tangent, so we need to tie it back in to modesty, self-esteem, and women's body confidence -- or move these last few posts and continue it elsewhere.
    Okay, I'll tie it back to modesty. Science doesn't claim to be able to answer "Why?" yet (there might not even be an answer to Why), it's being modest and science has women's body confidence issues.

    Spiritually can help create modest, high self-esteem women with high body confidence if they are secure in their spirituality. But instead of answers, all it offers are abstractions on top of cliches on top of a mountain of platitudes. You can't just guess the answer to the biggest question in the universe and call it a real answer in my book.

    Ok, I'm done. I hate having to move posts from threads.

  8. #78
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chachamaru View Post
    Does this really add to self esteem, though? Does it add to one's self worth?

    I doubt it... because it doesn't change what's underneath.
    No, it doesn't. While I do love the fact that ladies pretty themselves up so much, it does make me wonder sometimes if the fact that it's there to begin with is a good thing or a bad thing.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  9. #79
    Senior Member chachamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    No, it doesn't. While I do love the fact that ladies pretty themselves up so much, it does make me wonder sometimes if the fact that it's there to begin with is a good thing or a bad thing.
    Do you like the act of primping or the end result? I don't know your sexuality, so I'm going to assume you're attracted to females: Do you like knowing that they spent time (like an investment) to be pretty to look at/impress you?
    a cat is fine too

  10. #80
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chachamaru View Post
    Do you like the act of primping or the end result? I don't know your sexuality, so I'm going to assume you're attracted to females: Do you like knowing that they spent time (like an investment) to be pretty to look at/impress you?
    You're correct and yes I do. Of course, I love it when anyone goes out of their way to get my attention but most especially women. I admit though to feeling a little guilty as I wonder how many ladies feel like they need to put in that extra effort just to grab my attention.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

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