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  1. #91
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Heinlein was just a dirty old man. (Ever read "I Will Fear No Evil"?)
    I was going to mention that in my original post.. I decided to not detract from the issue.

  2. #92
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Beauty is entirely subjective, intelligence is not. Intelligence has direct benefits over its absence. Thinking beauty is important has no direct benefits over thinking it's unimportant.
    Intelligence is not nearly as objective as you suggest, while beauty is not entirely subjective, as others have already pointed out. A life without beauty has a significant downside relative to a life where it is present. In bleak surroundings, the human spirit learns to appreciate beauty in more diverse, varied, and unexpected forms. My point is that it is possible for each of us to see beauty in ourselves, if only we stop using limited and restricting standards.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My point is that it is possible for each of us to see beauty in ourselves, if only we stop using limited and restricting standards.
    Yes, because it is subjective.

    I don't know why this is so hard to get. An objective trait is in the object, so a stone statue is objectively made of stone. No one can observe it and think it is not made of stone, without being wrong.

    A subjective trait is in the the subject, so a beautiful stone statue doesn't actually have beauty as a part of it. The beauty is in the mind of the person seeing the statue. You can change their mind to find it ugly, yet the statue (object) hasn't changed, only the person's mind (subject).

    Intelligence is not in the mind of the observer, it is actually in the object. Whether something is intelligent is decided by the traits of that thing, not the person observing it. You can do whatever you like to the observer, but the object will stay just as intelligent.

    It doesn't matter if every human being, animal and alien that's ever existed found the exact same thing attractive, the attractiveness is still only in their minds.

  4. #94
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    It doesn't matter if every human being, animal and alien that's ever existed found the exact same thing attractive, the attractiveness is still only in their minds.
    This leaves no possibility for intersubjectivity. How do I know, for instance, that Jessica Alba is attractive, despite my own personal distaste for her looks? The attractiveness does not exist in my mind (since I don't find her attractive), nor does it exist in any particular person's mind that I can identify (that is, I'd still know she is thought of as attractive whether or not Johnny down the street finds her so.) Yet I know that she is considered an attractive person.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #95
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Why are women not allowed to become priests, Lark?
    Why dont women have penises Nicodemus? Why dont men have a uterous? Why cant everyone be exactly the same?

  6. #96
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    See? What's up with the negativity lately?
    Why place the blame with me?

    Blame the victim much.

  7. #97
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Servitude existed prior to Christian religion. Christian religion like any other expansionist corporation would use the same tools to "herd their sheep". The "God...exists" conclusion would be a logical fallacy.

    True. But then, you're not much challenge.

    Women shouldn't be ashamed of their bodies and if taking nude pics helps them in a "hair of the dog" way, good for them. Same goes for any men who suffer something similar. This is under the assumption that these pics are kept private. If they choose to share the pics with others, there might be negative consequences to their actions since people can be critical, provide insufficient validation or worse yet, share them with others.
    Yeah, pretty standard unsophisticated liberal fare there. Repeating your prejudices doesnt win you anything.

  8. #98
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Why dont women have penises Nicodemus? Why dont men have a uterous? Why cant everyone be exactly the same?
    So are you saying that, to be a priest, you have to have a penis?
    I think that was kinda his point.

    (Btw, it's "uterus". It's a noun, not an adjective.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #99
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    There has been some very sharp tacks who held religious views. I also think, back in 500 B.C. all the way to the 1600s and beyond, religious answers to everyday questions were more plausible, because logical scientific answers weren't available to compete with the supernatural theories. We haven't quite gotten a grip on how the world and universe actually works, until very recently. And even now, what we know, is probably so little compared to what's out there. And where science and technology will take us 50, 100, 500 years from now.

    So perhaps a great mind would be more inclined in the past to hold strong religious views, than they are in the present, is what I think. Is that terribly arrogant and untrue, do you think?
    I think yes it is. Science is this age's orthodoxy, if its eventual rejection is as severe as religion's it may not bode well for humanity. The problem is that too many people conflate superstition and ignorance with religion or tradition, while at the same time behaving with the fatal conceit of the present for the past. It makes me heart sick to witness it and see it repeated over and over as bold insight when it's anything but. Sometimes it feels like ground hog day.

    Although mind you years ago I might have said the same thing, not just as you here but as Metaphor. Perhaps I have as much myopia and defensiveness for my present perspectives as I did once acknowledgely have for the other but there doesnt appear to be anyone else voicing doubts or defending it.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Lark didn't always have that mean side, that we see today. Before the insanity got him.

    Now I question everything he's ever said!
    I dont know were you're going with this "mean side" business, it looks like just another way of behaving dismissive.

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