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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    I believe in determinism, and the fact that the universe is not necessarily perfectly deterministic, doesn't mean humans make choices, because it is not we who control the probabilistic quantum world. That being said, compatibilism can make sense with certain definitions of free will, and I find the way Hume arguments interesting. Still though, compatibilism some times feels like rationalizing. Humans have an uncanny ability of seeing themselves as special, and will stop at nothing to achieve it.
    Spinoza maintained that there is no mind absolute or free will, but the mind is determined for willing this or that by a cause which is determined in its turn by another cause, and this one again by another, and so on to infinity. A body in motion or at rest must be determined for motion or rest by some other body, which, likewise, was determined for motion or rest by some other body, and this by a third and so on to infinity.

  2. #32
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'm in the free will camp myself.

    One major problem with pure determinism is that one cannot logically believe in science and determinism. The philosophical foundations for science assume free will ("I think therefore I am", and all of it's corollaries.)
    That may be what they said in the 1700s, but where we are now, knowing what we do about the complexity of the field of synaptic combinations inside every skull and given a holistic analog like computers, we can be basically certain that there's no such thing.

    Grayscale said it right. The only reason to ever believe there's such a thing as free will in humans is to misunderstand the intimate intricacies of physics.

    Furthermore if a person concludes that there is no free will based on scientific findings then they have reached a horrible contradiction.
    How? How? How? How?
    Where's the contradiction?

    I almost don't care because I hate scientists, but I sure you're completely wrong.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The problem is: How do you KNOW that we are entirely dependent on everything around us in regards to making decisions?

    It seems to me much like God: How on earth can one possibly prove that free will DOESN'T exist at all? Perhaps there is still a minute portion of our consciousness, that one "last private inch" of ourselves, that operates independently. We have no way to explore the truth of that, or articulate it. It might not exist.

    But there's no way to prove it doesn't.
    Sure there is. Whatever random script might be circling originated from somewhere. It most likely occurred in the womb, but I guess it doesn't really matter.

    Unless it's made of non-particles (maybe that's where dark matter is!) or some other kind of I don't know what.

    But then wait -- we're referencing decision making as if it were something separate. All brain activity, one neuron to another, is just one cell; one particle at a time reacting to its environment: The surrounding particles.
    So is the question whether there's such a thing as random action, or is the question whether decisions are made?
    Forget about whether there's something we can't see. Even if there is, it still has to pass on it's result to the brain, where it is converted into a decision.

    Unless you posit that the entire decision is made in this invisible space, but then again it boils down to "is it random, or are there actual factors contributing to a conclusion?"

    And if it is random, then surely it's free, but it's not willed.
    And if it is processed, then it is definitely willed, but cannot be free.
    we fukin won boys

  4. #34
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    "Free will" is just the human label for the deterministic reactions inside the body.

    In that sense, there's no problem with the term. Determinism holds and so does free will; the words explain the same phenomena in different ways.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    "Free will" is just the human label for the deterministic reactions inside the body.
    Fair enough. As a matter of fact, I was driving home reading your OP and part of grayscale's first response and the same thing occurred to me. I meant to post it but it's hard to steer and look at the keys to make sure I'm hitting the right ones. Then when I got home I forgot about it and posted the other shit.

    And don't say any of that 'great minds think alike' bullshit.
    At best, great minds sometimes come to similar if not coinciding conclusions.

    In that sense, there's no problem with the term. Determinism holds and so does free will; the words explain the same phenomena in different ways.
    I'd say, if we just say free will as in, nobody else's brain makes decisions for mine. Howzabout that?
    we fukin won boys

  6. #36
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Works fine for me.

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