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Would YOU kill the baby?

Would YOU kill the baby?


  • Total voters
    61

ZPowers

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I still think it's better going out trying to kill Nazis than living by killing babies.

Agreed, all else being equal. But consider:

A) The baby will die anyways, probably in a worse way (the Nazis likely have little interest in quick/painless).

B) You will live if the baby dies now.

C) Other lives are also at stake. How many others are hiding with you is unknown.

So fighting the Nazis is noble, but the ultimate outcome is several lives lost, including the baby's, as opposed to only the baby. From a utilitarian perspective, killing the baby is obviously the right thing to do. From a Kantian or moral absolutist's perspective, you have to let the baby live.

Of course, it also depends on HOW likely you are to be heard/discovered.
 

Qlip

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Agreed, all else being equal. But consider:

A) The baby will die anyways, probably in a worse way (the Nazis likely have little interest in quick/painless).

B) You will live if the baby dies now.

C) Other lives are also at stake. How many others are hiding with you is unknown.

So fighting the Nazis is noble, but the ultimate outcome is several lives lost, including the baby's, as opposed to only the baby. From a utilitarian perspective, killing the baby is obviously the right thing to do. From a Kantian or moral absolutist's perspective, you have to let the baby live.

Of course, it also depends on HOW likely you are to be heard/discovered.

Yeah, I'm not very utilitarian. I think that living is important, but how you live is more important. Our time is finite, 1 year or 120, it's what we do during it that counts.

If we're going to be all realistic, what'll happen is that one of the above posters will kill me when it starts like I'm going to make a fuss about it.
 

Totenkindly

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I still think it's better going out trying to kill Nazis than living by killing babies.

You inglorious bastard.

rock on!

But, isn't this why we discuss these things? So that we might cultivate a sense of right and wrong hoping that when the test comes we might rise above our basic emotional response and act morally? Isn't it our reliance on principles and not instincts that make us human and distinguish us from animals?

Evil prevails where people are controlled by fear and not by principles.

Thinking about principles can lead to acting on them. Bonhoeffer was writing his book, Ethics, when he was imprisoned by the nazis.

Please, do not mistake my high expectations here as extreme condemnation of those who would fall short. In choice of evil situations I don't think punishment should be harsh on the guilty.

Oh, I think you take me too seriously sometimes. :)
 

Beorn

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Oh, I think you take me too seriously sometimes. :)


Internetz-srs-busynusss.jpg
 

ZPowers

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In either case, there will be killing, and it will be done by your hand

Or, rather, attempted killing. I can't see some unarmed man crawling out of the floor actually successfully killing anyone in a group of (assumedly) armed Nazis.*

It does raise an interesting point though. My previous statement about Kantian/moral absolutism falls apart if he tries to kill the Nazis. It's a different system altogether.

Though I am aware people (including me) don't walk around with some detached reaction to moral questions, processing it through the machine of a logical ethical system. They react based on something a little less explicable or rational. So defining that system could just be a waste of time



*Unless he is Batman, in which case he will knock all the Nazis unconscious, though kill none.
 

Amargith

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I don't fit into the general misguided paramiters I guess. But in terms of speaking, the penis is somewhat misconceptuous.

I rather ask than assume :)
 

Lark

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I first became familiar with this when a real life story of people hiding from a patrol during the Korean war was broadcast as part of a documentary in the UK, the mother of the child drowned it in a puddle in order that the group would survive. It was the mother and father who told the story, they both broke down in tears. It was the most heart breaking story of war that I've heard, although Sophies choice and others are probably objectively the same.

I know this. There is no crime that a man will not commit to save himself. I am probably no different. In fact I know that if I was in a group and they needed me to be that guy and carry that sin or trauma that they could all live I may do it. Although I would seek retaliation and it would be as horrifying and bloody as the killing of the baby.

In the past in certain situations which where unsafe or risky or where an aggressor was threatening me and others I've been able to shut of my every day self and act in a way to resolve the situation, conscience does exact a penalty but it does not get in the way at the time, I've investigated Zen, forgiveness as a philosophical and spiritual idea, different theories about mindfulness to offset this kind of thing.

The best depiction I've ever seen of this in literature is actually in the graphic novel "born" which is a kind of genesis of Marvel's The Punisher and depicts Frank Castle's experiences in Vietnam. The skull motif associated with the character is depicted as a kind of inner voice which speaks to Frank, like doing a deal with the devil, telling him that he can "get us out of this" at a point in which Frank's position is being over run, in order to survive Frank concedes to this psychological shadow and goes into a berserker rage. The book finishes with a point that its his family which are the only thing preventing the shadow dominating completely, which I thought made sense as in the Punisher mythos its the murder of his family by mobsters which motivates his Death Wish like punisher campaign of violence.
 

Beargryllz

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I know this. There is no crime that a man will not commit to save himself. I am probably no different. In fact I know that if I was in a group and they needed me to be that guy and carry that sin or trauma that they could all live I may do it. Although I would seek retaliation and it would be as horrifying and bloody as the killing of the baby.

The group will not die for an individual. This might as well be international law, because we see it in all times and in all places, through myth and history. There is little a human superorganism will fail to do to survive. Who actually does it hardly relevant, because the level of redundancy that comes with a group is sufficient for at least one, if not several members to take action.
 

Not_Me

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1 the action contemplated is in itself ethically good or ethically indifferent
I think the analysis can stop right here. The action is the purposeful taking of innocent human life. It is murder. You can't do it.
Not so fast. Causing the death of an innocent person is bad. But causing the death of several innocent people is arguably worse. The rational choice is clear. Take the action that will minimize the number of deaths.

If I don't have principles and things that I'm not willing to do under any circumstances then what makes me better than the nazis?
Having taboos does not automatically make you a better person. In fact, they can make you less "virtuous". It really depends on the value system.
 

freeeekyyy

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You are a Jewish person inside Nazi occupied France. You are hiding under the floorboards with many others Jewish people, when evil Nazis come in to search houses near by. As you are there, a baby with the jewish hiders starts to cry.


This baby cannot stop crying, and you know if it continues to cry, you, and everyone under the floor, could possibly be discovered by the nazis and killed. You don't have time to find out if they're going to skip your house or not, and even then, there is still the possibility of them hearing it.

Do you kill the baby?

NO CHEATING

No "muffling his cries, getting it drunk, etc"

You either kill it, or you don't and risk the possibility of getting everyone else killed.

Nope. Murder is unexcusable, regardless of circumstance.
 

Curator

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Id kill it, then force myself to believe I had just killed a chicken, then later break down in a military mental hospital when I remember what I really killed... j/k...

Actually, I dont think I would, id like to think I could possibly do it to save everyone else, but if actually faced with it, I really dont think I could...I love babies to much... and would rather die than kill the baby...
 

Lateralus

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Killing the baby means I might also have to kill the baby's mother or father. I'd probably do nothing.
 
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