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View Poll Results: Would YOU kill the baby?

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  • I'd kill it/get someone else to kill it

    32 48.48%
  • I would not kill it and risk the possibility of being heard

    34 51.52%
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  1. #41
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    For situations like this I find Aquinas's principle of double effect helpful. It seeks to assess the morality of performing an act in pursuit of a good when full knowledge is present that the act will result in an evil consequence.

    There are four conditions that must be met:

    1 the action contemplated is in itself ethically good or ethically indifferent
    I think the analysis can stop right here. The action is the purposeful taking of innocent human life. It is murder. You can't do it.

    But, we'll continue anyway...

    2 the evil consequence is not directly intended.
    The way the question is framed by YWIR seems that the evil would be directly intended. Under other circumstances the baby may be accidentally suffocated while keeping it quiet without the intent of murder.

    3 the good result must not be a direct causal result of the evil result.
    In this case the saving of other lives would be a direct result of the murder.

    4 the good result must be “proportionate to” the evil result.
    In this instance the good would outweigh the bad.

    Notice that Aquinas is willing to balance consequences, but only after hard principles have been considered.
    Good post.

    If I don't have principles and things that I'm not willing to do under any circumstances then what makes me better than the nazis?
    You're not, that's the irony. SS Reichsführer Himmler famously stated he did not care if 10,000 Russian women died from exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch, so long as it was completed. Why? Because it would save plenty of German lives.

  2. #42
    Sniffles
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    The OP is another example of what's commonly called a Sophie's Choice.

    The mother has to make a choice: keep one of her children alive, which means the other will be killed. Pick one, or both kids will be killed.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I don't really think it is moral to kill an animal unless it is for sustenance. So if I did kill the baby, I'd have to make sure we ate it, and every part of its body was used for something practical.
    More than a few people survived the horrors of WWII through cannibalism. I will admit that this may be the ideal solution. The problem with survival isn't bounded entirely by whether or not noise is produced, but by how much sustenance one can find while hiding.

  4. #44
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    "looks at: forum name, title, avatar and MBTI type"


    YWIR are you pregnant and thinking about killing that baby ?

  5. #45
    figsfiggyfigs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    "looks at: forum name, title, avatar and MBTI type"


    YWIR are you pregnant and thinking about killing that baby ?
    No, you'd have to get'sum first



    re:question:

    ... if it was my own baby, I don't think I'd be able to do it...I'd get someone else to do it for me.
    I know some of you thought the ultimatum was too restricting, but you have to consider "muffling their cries" and "getting it drunk" are still extremely risky decisions to be making, and by doing so, you're still putting a lot of people in danger. Killing it would be the most definite way to ensure you're not heard/found.

    There is still the possibility of them skipping your house and not hearing the baby at all, so, you would've killed/had the baby killed by another for no reason.

    If it was someone else's baby, I probably wouldn't be with those people in the first place. But if I had to be, I'd kill it.

    Also, considering a baby doesn't really process information as deeply/quickly as an adult--thoughts that go through its mind, feelings of betrayal and sadness, etc, would probably make the act itself easier to do.



    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Is it an ugly baby?

    You know what, I'm gonna say it is....

    I wonder if that actually effects people's decision making... "meh, it was ugly anyways, and I can make a new one later"

  6. #46
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    There isn't a DOH! smiley big enough.

    KILL THE NAZIS!




    The only flaw in this plan is, what with all the WWII movies there are now, it's possible to know ahead of time to NOT get in a cellar with a bunch of Jews, but to organise a resistance. But if I hadn't known that and there I was, listening to the baby squawk...

    Pffft, the only way they'd let me get away with killing the baby is if they all knew to be afraid of the men outside, in which case we all would have known before getting in the cellar, so getting into the cellar in the first place was the point where we all gave up the right to kill each other in self-preservation.

    All that said, there is only one way to justify killing the child: if saving your own life paid back all of the witnesses far more than you took from them... if you had to stay alive not just to stay alive...



    Hmmmm, no one elect me to high office, k? You'll all be buried for the greater good.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #47
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I'd probably kill it in my panicked attempt to shut it up.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #48
    figsfiggyfigs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    get in a cellar with a bunch of Jews
    sounds like a beginning to a racist joke.

    Actually, I had thought about that a few times... when I watched Inglourious Basterds, I wondered why the fudge would the family hide under the floorboards, when there is a huge ass forest right next to them. They could've just gone there and waited it out, while the nazi's visited the house.

    I know that Nazi patrols did search forests with dogs from time to time, but in THAT scenario, the survival rate would've been much greater I think...

    I would've climbed trees if I would have had to.

  9. #49
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    ^ some people don't have the inner SP to guide their armchair moral theory making.

    That so many people did get on trains and could be herded into camps says... something.



    The anti-Godwin rule: should the Simpsons ever be used to prove a point in a Nazi thread, thread will just keep getting better. So-o-o-o...

    Homer, Marge and Maggie walk into a cellar...
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #50
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    If we kill it, do we get to eat it too? It's morally reprehensile to kill without using the entire body or at least as much of the body as possible.
    Jonathan Swift had something there.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    There is no rational answer to this question.
    That is because it is a moral question, not a rational one.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    sorry, but my will to survive is greater than my love of babies (which isn't all that great in the first place)... if it's down to everyone or the baby, the baby is dying... it'd die if the Nazis discovered it anyways, so the kid is doomed
    What if you dressed the baby up like a Nazi? They wouldn't kill one of their own, would they? Maybe they would take it in and raise it as their own -- a changeling Jewish Nazi. That is the stuff that great American cinema is made out of... or at least Tarantino could do something with it.

    In fact, as far as that goes, how can you tell a baby is Jewish anyway... unless it's a circumcized male baby. But non-Jew males gets circumcized too. Unless the baby is singing the Hava Nagila or wearing a yarmulke on its head, how on earth could they tell it was a jewish baby? Just take the baby upstairs and let the house owner pretend it is her baby; keep it swaddled, if you think appearances could give it away. let her pretend to console it. Then the baby can cry all it wants and it doesn't matter if it is heard. It's kind of a "Purloined Baby" scenario.... risky, but a chance we'll have to take.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy
    I don't really think it is moral to kill an animal unless it is for sustenance. So if I did kill the baby, I'd have to make sure we ate it, and every part of its body was used for something practical.
    Did you even read this thread, or do you always crib someone else's answers on ethics tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater
    For situations like this I find Aquinas's principle of double effect helpful. It seeks to assess the morality of performing an act in pursuit of a good when full knowledge is present that the act will result in an evil consequence.
    If I was holding a crying baby and surrounded by irritable Nazis, I think the last thing I would think to do in a moment like that would be to be digging out my copy of Summa Theologica. "THOMAS! HELP ME!"

    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR
    Also, considering a baby doesn't really process information as deeply/quickly as an adult--thoughts that go through its mind, feelings of betrayal and sadness, etc, would probably make the act itself easier to do.
    It's one thing to rationalize killing a baby.
    It's another thing to do it.

    I mercy-killed a kitten once by drowning it.
    Never again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The anti-Godwin rule: should the Simpsons ever be used to prove a point in a Nazi thread, thread will just keep getting better. So-o-o-o... Homer, Marge and Maggie walk into a cellar...
    Let me guess: Bart and Milhouse are playing Nazis.

    Homer: Well, Marge. I guess that's it. We have to smother Maggie. *holds out his hands*
    Marge: What are you talking about? Those aren't Nazis, that's just Bart and Milhouse training Santa's Little Helper how to goosestep!

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I'd probably kill it in my panicked attempt to shut it up.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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