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View Poll Results: Would YOU kill the baby?

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  • I'd kill it/get someone else to kill it

    32 48.48%
  • I would not kill it and risk the possibility of being heard

    34 51.52%
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  1. #191
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    I think I am satisfied that this is a personal choice. I would choose myself over the baby since the decision is equally moral as the alternative.

  2. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I think I am satisfied that this is a personal choice. I would choose myself over the baby since the decision is equally moral as the alternative.
    You can not kill without consequence, you can not kill the innocent without a greater consequence, this is not a question of law or even moral calculation but conscience, psychological emotion and affect. The point you make sounds very much like a rationalisation.

    You might survive but the trauma might to enough to kill you eventually or drive you mad. I know it would do it to me, I'm stronger than a lot of people I know. I may do it to spare them and save more people than myself but the cost could be my life or mind, I know that. Moral philosophising wont be much consolation.

  3. #193
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    If Lark cannot do it, no one can!

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You can not kill without consequence, you can not kill the innocent without a greater consequence,
    You're mistaken. You most certainly can. Besides, both alternatives would result in at least one innocent death.
    this is not a question of law or even moral calculation but conscience, psychological emotion and affect. The point you make sounds very much like a rationalisation.
    Why would I feel guilty if I didn't do anything wrong?

    You might survive but the trauma might to enough to kill you eventually or drive you mad. I know it would do it to me, I'm stronger than a lot of people I know. I may do it to spare them and save more people than myself but the cost could be my life or mind, I know that. Moral philosophising wont be much consolation.
    You've been watching too much dramatic TV.

  5. #195
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    I'd likely not. What if in my trying to kill the baby, the parents/relatives feel equally froggy and form a counter-attack?
    Then the resulting violence causes a huge commotion and all of us are discovered?

    Eh. Maybe I'd be too frozen with fear to do anything though.

  6. #196
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    If you're asking if I'd choose myself over a baby of undisclosed origin, I probably would. In spite the fact that I am not a Jew, and this incident, or predicament for that matter, wouldn't happen to me, and seems all too unlikely, I would do my best to keep the baby and myself alive.
    Oh, its
    You
    ....

  7. #197
    Senior Member Stigmata's Avatar
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    Yes. If the baby is heard, you'll be hauled off to a concentration camp somewhere where you and everyone else will meet their imminent demise, either through the slow agonizing pain of starvation, or the quick death of being executed upon arrival. To me, it's a matter of analyzing the situation; Do I jeopardize the safety of multiple people to save one child? Or do I sacrifice this child to better our chances of survival? Would I enjoy it? Hell no.

    With either of the choices the baby is going to die; It's just a matter of whom will be the one to kill it.

  8. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    You're mistaken. You most certainly can. Besides, both alternatives would result in at least one innocent death.

    Why would I feel guilty if I didn't do anything wrong?


    You've been watching too much dramatic TV.
    Affect and emotion is more powerful than reason, the best you can do is rationalise after the fact but it will not provide you would a completely clear conscience, if you doubt that you should consider the longitudinal studies which have been carried out on the psychological costs of killing in wars by soldiers who were to all intents and purposes fighting just wars or fighting just for their own personal survival even.

    I'm not talking simply about the evidence from WW1 which indicated that in a large enough number all soldiers would shoot wide or above their target, hoping that someone else in their company would make the kill shot, that was a different time and I'd argue on in which there was more of a conscientious objection to violence and war than today. I am talking about studies involving stockholm syndrome, survivors guilt, PTSD, guilt etc. Rationalisations are no magic bullet. Just ask any Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapist or Cognitive Behaviour Therapist if you have any doubt because positive reframing and rationalisations are in part their stock and trade.

    I mentioned the TV show because it corresponded to what I new and it was a pop reference, not because I felt it was stand alone truth or evidence.

  9. #199
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    If Lark cannot do it, no one can!
    Update: If some cannot do it, no one can!

  10. #200
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    Can I not banish the crying baby and it's parents from the hiding place? Wait...they might snitch. I'd have to go with killing it, but then again, it's highly unlikely that I'd hide with or near anyone with a child. If the Nazis are planning to kill us, then either way the baby dies, but there is a higher chance of survival for the adults. I am a self-preservationist and if you stand in the way of the only viable path, I will remove you.


    I've found two examples of a 'crying baby dilemma', with one resulting in the capture and murder of twenty people.

    The rabbi ordered that no one should risk harming the child and, as a result, all twenty people were discovered and murdered by the Nazis.
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

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