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View Poll Results: Would YOU kill the baby?

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  • I'd kill it/get someone else to kill it

    32 48.48%
  • I would not kill it and risk the possibility of being heard

    34 51.52%
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  1. #181
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Your actions will result in at least one death, either the baby or yourself. Are you making a rational or emotional decision?
    Not necessarily. Where is the guarantee that the baby will cause the Nazis to kill everyone? It's being assumed that this will happen. So now, who's making a rational or emotional decision? It could easily be said that the individuals who choose to kill the baby "in case" the Nazis hear it are basing their decision on fear which is an irrational emotion.

  2. #182
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Two things:

    1. The question seems to be about weighing the certain death of one person (the baby) against the possible death of a group including oneself. The rest is decoration (as the question "what is two apples plus three apples" is not about fruit) . From that perspective it makes little sense to discuss alternative solutions or the color of the baby's pacifier.

    2. On the other hand, classic ethical dilemmata are usually presented as an A or B choice. Life however is seldom A or B. So I have been wondering recently if teaching and discussing ethics with the help of A or B scenarios strengthes this in the box black and white thinking in real life. Could it lead to narrowmindedness or in the box thinking? If there are many shades of grey and dozents of factors to consider in real life, and quite often there is a third way out if you only look for it. So what might the implications be if we are used to these simplified scenarios?

    Just thinking out loud here.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Not necessarily. Where is the guarantee that the baby will cause the Nazis to kill everyone? It's being assumed that this will happen. So now, who's making a rational or emotional decision? It could easily be said that the individuals who choose to kill the baby "in case" the Nazis hear it are basing their decision on fear which is an irrational emotion.
    Since this is likely a thread dealing with ethics rather than logistics, I think we can cut to the chase and assert that the Nazis are out for blood and that killing the baby will increase your chance of survival astronomically. The key issue is whether one think or feel it is moral to do so. I find it interesting to see how people make the decision.

  4. #184
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Since this is likely a thread dealing with ethics rather than logistics, I think we can cut to the chase and assert that the Nazis are out for blood and that killing the baby will increase your chance of survival astronomically. The key issue is whether one think or feel it is moral to do so. I find it interesting to see how people make the decision.
    This entire situation has nothing to do with logic and neither do ethics or morals. It's all subjective.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    2. On the other hand, classic ethical dilemmata are usually presented as an A or B choice. Life however is seldom A or B. So I have been wondering recently if teaching and discussing ethics with the help of A or B scenarios strengthes this in the box black and white thinking in real life. Could it lead to narrowmindedness or in the box thinking? If there are many shades of grey and dozents of factors to consider in real life, and quite often there is a third way out if you only look for it. So what might the implications be if we are used to these simplified scenarios?
    I think these scenarios can prepare you ahead of time in case it happens in real life. It's better than facing it for the first time in the field where a split second decision is necessary.

    I notice your type preference is "P", which suggest that you prefer to leave decisions to the last minute.

  6. #186
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Not so much postpone them out of an aversion towards decision making but because, hey, maybe I overlooked something, there are so many factors to consider. Wouldn't it suck to kill somebody and then suddenly realize it would have been better to chose another option?

    And the preparation is exactly what worries me. What if there are 3 or 4 or 5 options and you only see 2 because you are trained to see them?
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    This entire situation has nothing to do with logic and neither do ethics or morals. It's all subjective.
    If it was just an individual decision, then it can be decided on the whim of the moment. However, in social situations, it is beneficial to agree on a common framework that everyone is bound to. This turns the decision into an ethical one. For example, we can agree that joy killings are forbidden, even if one member subjectively disagree.

    In this scenario, do we set rules, or do we assert that no agreement is possible, so everyone is free to follow their conscious without repercussions from the rest?

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    And the preparation is exactly what worries me. What if there are 3 or 4 or 5 options and you only see 2 because you are trained to see them?
    That is so "P". I'm not a super strong "J", so I understand to a degree. But I like to plan for all known contingencies ahead of time. If new information shows up, then I will be able to devote all my energy on the unexpected.

  9. #189
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If it was just an individual decision, then it can be decided on the whim of the moment. However, in social situations, it is beneficial to agree on a common framework that everyone is bound to. This turns the decision into an ethical one. For example, we can agree that joy killings are forbidden, even if one member subjectively disagree.

    In this scenario, do we set rules, or do we assert that no agreement is possible, so everyone is free to follow their conscious without repercussions from the rest?
    What you're suggesting is called a social contract. Since this situation is a one-off, a social contract isn't necessary or desired since black and white decisions about killing babies aren't regular occurrences.

    The question is whether or not individuals within the group choose to defend the baby against the others who vote to kill it. And if that happens, the ensuing noise from the adult brawl will surely attract Nazi attention. So, the baby will be safe unless the anti-baby division is willing to risk attracting the attention of the Nazis, in order to silence the baby since the baby might attract the Nazis from its crying. And then pure irony hits!

  10. #190
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If it was just an individual decision, then it can be decided on the whim of the moment. However, in social situations, it is beneficial to agree on a common framework that everyone is bound to. This turns the decision into an ethical one. For example, we can agree that joy killings are forbidden, even if one member subjectively disagree.

    In this scenario, do we set rules, or do we assert that no agreement is possible, so everyone is free to follow their conscious without repercussions from the rest?
    QED. That's what I meant when I talked about the previous simplified discussion limiting the freedom of choice in the moment of real life implementation.

    If a dilemma, by definition, is a choice between two equally bad options, a social codification of the "right" choice is arbitrary. It can facilitate desicion making under duress, but that does not mean that your socially condoned choice is inherently better (unless the fact that there is a consensus creates a value of its own).
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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