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  1. #11
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Each of us is most susceptible to the propaganda that we want to believe in. The Holocaust pictures don't seem manipulative because they agree with the view that you already have. The pro-life or global warming pictures are presenting a message that you don't particularly agree with, so it seems manipulative.
    No, I don't think that's it. It's because they're playing on emotions. I hate it when people "on my side" use manipulation, as well.

    Effective propaganda doesn't change a person's mind. It either reinforces an established view, or it gives a person an opinion before they formed their own.
    I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it could have a long term effect that's more difficult to measure.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #12
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    On balance, I'm not certain that it's right to shortchange the validity of content that engenders emotion. I'm not certain that an emotional response should be assumed to be any less valid than an intellectual response. Although intellect is the arena in which I almost always operate, I have come to distrust unalloyed intellect as a guiding principle.

    On that basis, I say that as long as the content presented in the images is factual, i.e. it correctly and truly represents what it's claimed to represent, then it's fair game.
    The problem for me is that emotional manipulation seems to always have an element of dishonesty to it.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The problem for me is that emotional manipulation seems to always have an element of dishonesty to it.
    How is that possible, if you're aware of it?

  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It is my opinion that global warming promoters showing me pictures of dead or suffering animals is just as objectionable as pro-lifers showing me pictures of aborted fetuses. Are these moral equivalents? Or am I missing something?
    I dont think so, personally I rate human life more highly than animal life but I think that they are both reprehensible shock tactics.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    How is that possible, if you're aware of it?
    I don't understand your point.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #16
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't understand your point.
    What I mean is, if you are aware that an image and message have been calculated to manipulate you emotionally, does that not render you immune to the manipulation? Having seen the trap laid for you, don't you thereby avoid falling prey to it?

  7. #17
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    What I mean is, if you are aware that an image and message have been calculated to manipulate you emotionally, does that not render you immune to the manipulation? Having seen the trap laid for you, don't you thereby avoid falling prey to it?
    It still has an effect on others. It also tends to make discussion of the related issue more hyperbolic.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It still has an effect on others. It also tends to make discussion of the related issue more hyperbolic.
    Either that, or you are dismissing the validity of the emotional component of the message out of hand. How can you be certain that the emotional content is invalid?

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't know if I would call them moral equivalents, but they are equivalent in attempting to evoke an emotional response, rather than the mature, objective discussion that should take place about either topic.
    While as a rationalist, I generally agree with this, I have to acknowledge that in some cases rational analysis can become too divorced from the actual, real, human, emotional impact of a particular decision.

    It might seem rational to downsize a company, but not after you actually hang out with your former employees at the food kitchens with their starving kids. War might seem justified, until you see some of the disabled soldiers and dead bodies (and/or pieces of bodies, and/or orphaned/wounded children] of civilians.

    Even with abortion and how the profileration of public pictures of remains can often be used as a club, one still has to put a fetus in physical context rather than just abstracting a scenario out of it; women who get abortions often have emotional issues afterward due to the invasiveness of the procedure as well the tangible loss of what they still might perceive as a child, and abstracting it to just an ethical question sometimes forgets that.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Either that, or you are dismissing the validity of the emotional component of the message out of hand. How can you be certain that the emotional content is invalid?
    In my experience, emotional messages lead to people screaming at each other rather than to people reaching greater understanding (assuming people with opposing view points are involved). This doesn't seem useful to me.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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