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  1. #21
    Senor Membrane
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    This is an interesting subject. To me it seems that the expectation of being a grown up at a certain age is just part of the propaganda. I don't think that people really ever were mature at the age of twenty, and most of them used to have children at that age. But the way it's been with your extended family living in the same house, the parents didn't have to be all that mature and wise, since there were the grandparents (at their forties or something) who had already seen a thing or two. But now that the extended family is cut off, the children will not have mature people around them, they just have their child-parents.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    This is an interesting subject. To me it seems that the expectation of being a grown up at a certain age is just part of the propaganda. I don't think that people really ever were mature at the age of twenty, and most of them used to have children at that age. But the way it's been with your extended family living in the same house, the parents didn't have to be all that mature and wise, since there were the grandparents (at their forties or something) who had already seen a thing or two. But now that the extended family is cut off, the children will not have mature people around them, they just have their child-parents.
    I think its very possibly true what you say but I also think that being obedient to the sanctions of conscience, without being neurotic about it, or comprehending consequences, thinking, forecasting and making judements on that basis is something I'd associate with age and aging and those things are less typical of people in their twenties then they would have been.

    It just seems to me that the age and stage at which the adult archetype gets activated in peoples consciousness is getting put further and further back, the horizon's forever receeding. Although a caveat to this which I've been thinking about too is that this is in the developed, affluent part of the world were people live with relative ease.

    In other parts of the world you've got City of God style mayhem, people arent maturing because they dont live long enough.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Well of course I have matured emotionally, mentally and responsibility wise.
    It's not the same thing.

    Traditions have changed. People stay the same.

    Why would my preferences change just because I am older??
    I'm interested to know what you mean by that in bold, since there would seem to be a major reciprocal relationship in the determination of each by the other that statement doesnt make sense to me as it stands.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Xellotath's Avatar
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    Nope, can't relate.
    I'm 25, 80% of my HS classmates are married, most have at least a kid.

    I'm resisting the urge to reduce your question to your Fe function, that cares so much about social roles - among them, age roles.
    But that feels rude.
    So I'll just float away, if that's okay. : )

    "Neurotic, ha!"
    I let out a scornful laugh.
    "If neurotic is wanting two mutually exclusive things at one and the same time, then I'm neurotic as hell.
    I'll be flying back and forth between one mutually exclusive thing and another for the rest of my days.
    "

    — Sylvia Plath, The Bell Jar.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    I can only talk from my own experience, how it seems hard to grow up in the times we are living in. I finished my studies just before my 26th birthday, went travelling for a few months and then decided that I would finally grow up, find a proper job, settle down etc. I moved from England back to my native Germany and lived there for 9 months but just couldn't find a job that wasn't just bar work or stuff like this, even to find an unpaid internship was a struggle because of German bureaucracy.

    So I thought, "Fuck that.", moved back to London where things are more flexible and I also have a bigger group of friends and I worked for several months in the minimum wage job I used to have as a student (it was just after the recession started, so finding anything else was again very difficult) Finally I got a job as a nanny which wasn't related to my qualifications but paid a decent wage and after working for a year I had earned enough to afford a Masters degree. I am mainly doing my Masters in Social Anthropology out of personal interest, not because I have any big career plans, in my experience making some big plans doesn't necessarily take you anywhere.

    The same goes for relationships, two of my best friends have just broken up with their boyfriends, one after 2 years, the other after 6 years of relationship, simply because the guys did not want to commit. How are you supposed to build a family and a future on that? I would only invest in a relationship if I see a long-term future so I am thinking, "Do I really need the drama and the heartbreak just to end up with nothing? No thank you. Either the right person comes along with whom I feel secure enough to have kids or I rather stay on my own."

    That's the story. I would love a bit more security and be able to build something, to work towards something but that seems rather difficult to achieve. Also working as a nanny I see a lot what's going on inside married couples' homes and it's needless to say not all a bed of roses. I rather wait and enjoy what I have now instead of pushing for kids and family just for the sake of it.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xellotath View Post
    Nope, can't relate.
    I'm 25, 80% of my HS classmates are married, most have at least a kid.

    I'm resisting the urge to reduce your question to your Fe function, that cares so much about social roles - among them, age roles.
    But that feels rude.
    So I'll just float away, if that's okay. : )
    I don't know where you live but in my group of friends (apart from the people who are Christian, they have a different approach to relationships), most are in their late 20s, early 30s and childless and at the moment single. I think the movie Garden State hits the nail on the head, a lot of people of my age group can relate to its characters very well.

    And no, my questions doesn't have to do with my Fe function, just look through this thread and articles in the media in general and you will see that there is a trend here.

  7. #27
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    I suppose it's what happens in an age of ever increasing freedom (in respect to how we are able to run our lives). Over the past few generations, there has been increasingly less need to jump straight into careers and starting families, etc. We're able to explore ourselves and the world we live in more, before making big decisions. Honestly, isn't it amazing to live in such a time? Humans are thoroughly capable of experiencing happiness, even if only living meagerly, due to these lessening restrictions of shoulds and oughts of older societal pressures.

    I also agree with Kdude... I've always admired older people who are capable of holding on to their youth in their hearts. I strive to be that way as well. It almost seems wiser to do so.


    But honestly, I can even see my parents generation as having more youth-like qualities. My mom and dad love playing on their Wii, and goofing off, and love relaxing on the beach and things of that nature. I've seen these qualities in many of my parents friends as well. I think it's great. People are enjoying life all around.

    I realize, the original post is more about starting careers and families... and not so much on happiness and maturity. But I feel as though all of these tie in together as a moving cultural phenomena. We live in a period of ever increasing stress, and the outcome is that people are becoming more youthful as far as how they approach the world. Perhaps it's a defense mechanism. Could be the case... but either way, we're putting our own needs first. Which I don't believe is a bad thing. One might argue that this individual, me-first mindset is degrading the needs of the society. But, in cultures what are more group-oriented, versus individual-oriented, how much consideration do you really see for the whole or the individual? There were less rights. Women's rights, gay rights, religious rights, etc. etc. Even children's rights.




    It's still pretty early in the morning for me btw... so I hope you guys were able to make sense of what I've said...
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  8. #28
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    I don't know where you live but in my group of friends (apart from the people who are Christian, they have a different approach to relationships), most are in their late 20s, early 30s and childless and at the moment single. I think the movie Garden State hits the nail on the head, a lot of people of my age group can relate to its characters very well.

    And no, my questions doesn't have to do with my Fe function, just look through this thread and articles in the media in general and you will see that there is a trend here.
    I agree, this isn't reduced to J's wanting a world that is more apt to follow social roles. I know many ESFJ's, ISTJ's, ESTJ's, ENFJ's, etc. etc. that are all part of this growing age gap between being a youth and being a full adult.

    My sister... though an ESFJ and though married and pregnant... is in her mid 20's and still hasn't finished school. She's not in any super rush, though she is incredibly motivated at whatever she sets her mind to. And she's moved back in with our parents twice since she first originally moved out. Her exact motivations, I couldn't tell you... but for her, I think Fe follows her to want to stay in contact with the parents more. They live in another state, you see.

    My ISTJ roommate, dropped his classes in his final semester of college to instead work full time at the restaurant he works in, as well as spend more time with his new girlfriend. He has just as much of a desire to experience his own happiness first, as opposed to just falling into the career class. He spends a greater majority of his time playing video games, goofing off with his friends, and hanging out at the local bar. But he works hard at his restaurant job, too.

    This definitely isn't a P thing... but maybe a P movement.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  9. #29
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I don't know. I do hope that these immature "adults" are mature where it counts. My dad still has temper tantrums. They're annoying when someone is four, but downright scary when they're sixty.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #30
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I think there are a number of factors going on here, one of the biggest being the theoretically-ended recession and, more critically, the continuing high rate of unemployment. When graduates enter a job market with high unemployment (especially for lower-end and entry level jobs), it makes it nearly impossible to them to establish independence. Many are forced to move back home or otherwise live off of their parents income. Given high unemployment, it seems nearly inevitable that this is going to happen to a sizable slice of graduates. Hence, I think it's important not to read too much into character of 20-sometings given the economic realities.

    Of course, that's never stopped people before... so why should it stop me?

    Another thing that seems different about middle class and upper-middle class 20-somethings today is that many seem to have had incredibly managed childhoods compared to people of my generation (Generation X). In a way, it seems like young adults of today never had the kind of sprawling, relaxed free time that characterized much of my childhood. Instead, they were ferried around to soccer, music lessons, tutoring and other managed activities. From the outside, it seems to me like many of these kids were being pressured to succeed and groomed to get into the right kind of schools from a disturbingly young age. It also seems like all the programs and activities and worries about child safety would reinforce a message of "your life and well-being importance to the adults around you" and "follow the programs you are given and you will be on the path to success."

    So, by comparison it looks like today's young 20-somethings have had more directed lives and less self-automony than we had. Activities and schedules were often provided them, with a parent waiting to swoop in should anything go wrong. It seems like some kids in that environment get very little practice being self-directed.

    I have to wonder if having lived such a programmed life for so long, that people graduating into the work force today may feel overwhelmed by the sudden lack of structure and the multiplicity of options. I wonder if they feel subtly betrayed that they jumped through hoops during their over-scheduled extracurricular activities for years, and now suddenly there's no obvious hoop to jump through and all that work doesn't appear to be paying off.

    Before the downturn there was a lot of talk about how "entitled" young people entering the workforce were (which would make some sense, given their over-programmed childhoods). Now those entering the workforce are dealing with other issues, including having to deal with suddenly diminished expectations. That's never fun for anyone.

    Now, granted most of the above only applies to a subset of middle and upper-middle class 20-somethings in the US, but I do think there have been pretty big changes in attitudes towards children and how children's lives are scheduled.

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