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  1. #21
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    he he... on the whole thing about what we sense is OUR reality I'm going to quote myself from another thread!

    Here- for another example I'll quote one of my favorite books- this is from Tim O'Brien's book The Things They Carried

    "If Rat told you, for example, that he'd slept with four girls in one night, you could figure it was about a girl and a half. It wasn't a question of deceit. Just the opposite: he wanted to heat up the truth, make it burn so hot that you would feel exactly the way that he felt. For Rat Kiley, I think, facts were formed by sensations, not the other way around..."

    Is Rat lying? Or is he telling the truth? I would say that it was HIS truth, since that's the way that he experienced it, but the author says that it's a lie since it's not "the truth."
    since we can't prove anything beyond what we experience- what we experience is OUR truth- it's what we have to base things off of! that's how I've tended to operate anyways- our lives and experiences and perceptions are all that we have to work with realistically and that's generally what we end up applying to our everyday lives when we make decisions- sure you may refer back to something you read somewhere or a theory- but it must have appealed to you because it worked along with your life experiences well in the first place!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #22
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    he he... on the whole thing about what we sense is OUR reality I'm going to quote myself from another thread!



    since we can't prove anything beyond what we experience- what we experience is OUR truth- it's what we have to base things off of! that's how I've tended to operate anyways- our lives and experiences and perceptions are all that we have to work with realistically and that's generally what we end up applying to our everyday lives when we make decisions- sure you may refer back to something you read somewhere or a theory- but it must have appealed to you because it worked along with your life experiences well in the first place!
    Then there are as many different truths as there are people, because everyone experiences life differently. Don't tell that to an objectivist or religious person or they will run you out of town with torches and pitch forks. They believe there is only one ultimate truth, whether it is derived by human reason or from God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Take it up with those who write the descriptions.
    I am. Slowly.

    That actually directly contradicts the descriptions. Although it really doesn't have much to do with the topic of this thread.
    It doesn't contradict, actually, though I won't explain as it's not relevant here. I shouldn't have stepped in as it was long ago that you said it. It was inappropriate of me. Rather, it was me venting due to excessive amounts of Type-steroetypes I'm witnessing lately and trying to corect. I'm sorry if you were offended if my tone implied anger towards you.

  4. #24
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    I am. Slowly.



    It doesn't contradict, actually, though I won't explain as it's not relevant here. I shouldn't have stepped in as it was long ago that you said it. It was inappropriate of me. Rather, it was me venting due to excessive amounts of Type-steroetypes I'm witnessing lately and trying to corect. I'm sorry if you were offended if my tone implied anger towards you.
    Not at all, I'm just enjoying this discussion and I didn't want to risk it getting derailed on the topic of type stereotypes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  5. #25
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I think what you are actually experiencing here is the reality that logic is one of your personal values and the subsequent certainty you have placed in it to provide you with secure answers. Reasoning is an important tool, but it is an assumption that reason cannot be influenced by your limited perception. In fact, it is often the case that two perfectly reasonable people, with different perceptions, can correctly reason out two entirely different conclusions about the same thing.
    I guess the beauty of your argument here is that, in effect, you can argue almost any point into a veil of truthfulness by leveraging the "personal bias" status against it.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirilis View Post
    I guess the beauty of your argument here is that, in effect, you can argue almost any point into a veil of truthfulness by leveraging the "personal bias" status against it.
    You are forgetting what I said on my first post.

    "It is then arguable that the perfect amount of certainty lies in between, and so we conceived that it would always be wise to question certainty. Not question as in doubt certainty, but as in to "know why you know what you know." After all, isn't that the fundamental idea behind science? Science is the testing and retesting of established beliefs in an attempt to disprove them for the sake of increasing our confidence of certainty. And of course, science is the means by which humans have made progress."

    Perception without evidence is purely relative and thus meaningless, the key is to collect as many perceptions as possible to extrapolate what is most likely true for the most people.

    If you have a means of defining certainty better than methodology then I would love to hear it. However, man did not make progress on faith and logic alone; the reality is he had to devise systems of trial and error with which to test his assumptions and ensure he was not unwillingly biased in his conclusions. Faith and logic are important values and tools, but they are not an end unto themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  7. #27
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Then there are as many different truths as there are people, because everyone experiences life differently. Don't tell that to an objectivist or religious person or they will run you out of town with torches and pitch forks. They believe there is only one ultimate truth, whether it is derived by human reason or from God.
    Kiddo, do you really believe that about all religious people? Do you really think that I am going to come after whatever with torches and pitch forks because of the way she sees things? Or do you discount uncertain people as being religious?

    For all your dislike of certainty you sure like to express a lot of negative certainties about people you think have certainty.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #28
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Kiddo, do you really believe that about all religious people? Do you really think that I am going to come after whatever with torches and pitch forks because of the way she sees things? Or do you discount uncertain people as being religious?
    I only believe that about religious/objectivistic people who are certain about there beliefs. And by certain, I mean they accept their beliefs as absolute truth.

    For all your dislike of certainty you sure like to express a lot of negative certainties about people you think have certainty.
    I'm very prejudiced towards people who believe they know absolute truth. I'm learning to become tolerant of such people. But I've accepted that by their own beliefs, they will never be tolerant of me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #29
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I only believe that about religious/objectivistic people who are certain about there beliefs. And by certain, I mean they accept their beliefs as absolute truth.

    I'm very prejudiced towards people who believe they know absolute truth. I'm learning to become tolerant of such people. But I've accepted that by their own beliefs, they will never be tolerant of me.
    That's a pretty broad and certain brush.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #30
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    That's a pretty broad and certain brush.
    I said I was trying to become more tolerant of certain people. That shows I'm questioning my certainty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

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