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  1. #21
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So you think religion has no utility beyond explaining the unexplained?
    It does, but as science advances, it becomes more and more difficult for rational people to justify their religious beliefs.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm interested to see where the trend or tendency for state mandated respect of homosexuality will go too, will it become something the approval of which is more and more mandated by government, to the point of advocacy or will a point be reached where by people say that whatever they might think about personally they dont believe that the state or public should be able to behaviour coercively like that.

    I dont know, I followed the case of the couple in the UK providing B&B services who courts decided could not decline accomodation to a pair of homosexual men and was disappointed by the outcome, the courts deciding that the land lord and land lady had acted unlawfully, there has been some unhelpful and I believe stigmatising comment by religion in this case too.

    I wonder how the courts could have or would have acted if the land lord and land lady had couched their declining of the service in secular terms that their decision was based upon conscientious objection and reasonable suspiscion that they would be enabling behaviour which they would find unconscienable.

    I find it strange since I'm pretty sure that homosexuality has no official recognition or protection in law, in part because it would be difficult to define, is it behavioural? An orientation? A label? The progressives who once defined and defended same sex orientation have since moved beyond that to queer theory and the suggestion that binary sexual orientation is nebulous, bisexuality being the norm or, at the very least, heteronormativity to be denied.

    By and large I see this as about pleasing and placating a particular audience, religion is no longer fashionable, basing it is, a sort of voguish libertarianism and libertine value matrix is the order of the day and dissenting from it is increasingly being considered deviant and unlawful. Its unhelpful and I dont know where it will end, I suspect it could actually end badly for the very minority groups which originally the trend aimed to benefit.

    Then again what's new about that?
    You seemed to miss my point. I used the gay discussion as an example, because the way the people feel about it will either have an effect on the interpretation of the religion (of the church) or it will make the church go different way than the majority of the people. The way I saw the OP, I thought this is exactly what you meant by the religion evolving. The gays are just a great example to illustrate how the religion is evolving as we speak (at least here). I am sure that there will be a branch of the church (if not the whole church) that will interpret the bible in a way that will allow gays to be married. You should think this is absolutely great, because it will prove that the church has an incredible ability to evolve.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It does, but as science advances, it becomes more and more difficult for rational people to justify their religious beliefs.
    Because they see them as mere rationalisations of unconscious fears or poor explanations for natural phenomenon?

    Pretty reductive readings of religion there but I'd accept that's pretty wide spread.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    You seemed to miss my point. I used the gay discussion as an example, because the way the people feel about it will either have an effect on the interpretation of the religion (of the church) or it will make the church go different way than the majority of the people. The way I saw the OP, I thought this is exactly what you meant by the religion evolving. The gays are just a great example to illustrate how the religion is evolving as we speak (at least here). I am sure that there will be a branch of the church (if not the whole church) that will interpret the bible in a way that will allow gays to be married. You should think this is absolutely great, because it will prove that the church has an incredible ability to evolve.
    Oh OK, no I dont see religion evolving that way. Or if it does I hope that there remains some place an example which adapts instead of merely capitulations to social norms.

  5. #25

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    Not going to derail the thread.

  6. #26
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    How do you mean it evolves then? If evolution is adaptation to environment, and the environment of religion is the society, then I don't see any other way for it to evolve. I am speaking about mainstream religion now. Of course it can splinter into sects that have in a sense different society, the group of people that believe in it being in a way their own little society.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    My favourite mystic is Simone Weil (pronounced Vey).
    I plan to read some of her works since I read how Cioran adored her. Do you have a recommendation?

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    How do you mean it evolves then? If evolution is adaptation to environment, and the environment of religion is the society, then I don't see any other way for it to evolve. I am speaking about mainstream religion now. Of course it can splinter into sects that have in a sense different society, the group of people that believe in it being in a way their own little society.
    So evolution is tantamount to accepting social trends?

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I plan to read some of her works since I read how Cioran adored her. Do you have a recommendation?
    I'm very surprised to see Victor supporting Simone Weil, she was a self-starving religious traditionalist from what I can tell, I've not read Gravity and Grace entirely or The Need for Roots but she seems to have wanted to replace human rights with human obligations instead, I read, and liked better, her book Oppression and Liberty, she was a socialist and practiced a sort of personal job rotation between academic work and factory work, Oppression and Liberty is her scathing indictment of Marxism and Leninism and especially how they betrayed in government what they advocated in opposition.

    Orwell wrote about that too, suggesting that the best anti-socialist literature was always and any case that of them earlier in their campaigns or prior to seizing power, the whole of Animal Farm is meant to be a simple attack on betrayal, although Weil goes on into the territory of false hope, ameliorating avoidable suffering versus utopian goals etc.

  10. #30
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm very surprised to see Victor supporting Simone Weil...
    Simone was a lovable person. Some people I love instinctively. Perhaps because they reach down to my very depths; and because we observe them reaching down to their own depths. What can I say, Simone was a fragrant flower, deeper than the weather.

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