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  1. #1

    Default About the thread "Loving God"

    Hi guys,

    I spent a week studying, and after I took a break, I spent some time reading my bible. And then I realized that I have been "preaching" a compromised message.

    I made alot of claims, but I did not actually know anything about Hell. I must say that I spent alot of time posting on the thread when I knew that God did not WANT me to, I could not understand why until later, one simple reason was that I simply did not know I had an extra chapter to study I had missed out on. This meant that I did not give my best to God in my exam, and I had been claiming I always did. Not only that, I directly disobeyed him.

    Yes, I have sinned, and messed up.

    I also want to clarify that it was NOT because I saw miracles happen in my church that I chose to believe in Jesus. I had seen speaking in tongues in churches in the past as a kid, I simply went home and forgot about it.

    I'm making a photo slideshow of what happened last year that made me CHOOSE to be a Christian. It was because I saw that I was doing things I never wanted to do as part of my childhood dream. I would never have imagined myself taking drugs, being an alcohol addict etc. In fact, I met one girl at uni, now my best friend (aside from God), who was such a good example of a Christian, that..I felt like a total worm inside. I really hated what I had become, I knew I was scum, and I wanted to change.

    Also, I must say it did NOT take me a day to trust and love Jesus, which I've only just realized. Even after I became a Christian, I initially spent alot of time doing things the bible says you shouldn't, and initially I only went to church for the company, and to explore my spiritual gifting. It took me a LONG time to fully believe in Jesus.

    I must apologize to you, and I must say now that for those who want to know about the truth and hell, let me quote you the bible verses on hell: It is harsh, but I must promise to God never to compromise my message again.

    The Old Testament:

    Isaiah 66:24: "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

    Deuteronomy 32:22: "For a fire is kindled in My anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

    The New Testament

    2 Thessalonians 1:9 "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

    Revelation 14:10-11, about Satan: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

    And so here is the truth: "The door to heaven is narrow. Work hard to get in, for the truth is that many will try to enter but when the head of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. Then if you stand outside knocking, and pleading, "Lord, open the door for us," he will reply, "I do not know you."

    Luke 13:24

    I found a sermon on Youtube in which the speaker actually preaches very directly that there are many who call themselves Christian who do not follow the word of God. He stresses on the word "narrow".

    YouTube - Paul Washer - Shocking Message (full length)

    Also, how can God "hate" sin when he is love?

    You can check it out in that Youtube video above, the pastor explains it really well. To summarize what he says:

    That God is perfect, hence his standard is perfect. We all fall severely short of his expectations. There was no way, any of us could have made it to heaven. Since God is a holy God, his very essence and being hates sin. He hates in this way: If someone loves life, they hate abortion. Hence, we all faced God's wrath. It says in the bible that "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
    we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away."
    However, by God's grace, someone took the penalty for us. Jesus took on the full brunt of God's wrath, that is WHY anyone who believes in him, repents of their ways, can go to heaven.

    Not as simply as that, for: "For I am confident of this very thing,
    that He who began a good work in you
    will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."
    Philippians 1:6

    This means that we have a PROCESS of repentance.

    Isaiah 48 backs this up:

    8 You have neither heard nor understood;
    from of old your ears have not been open.
    Well do I know how treacherous you are;
    you were called a rebel from birth.

    9 For my own name's sake I delay my wrath;
    for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you,
    so as not to destroy you completely.

    10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver;
    I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

    This means that after we believe in Jesus, we have to live life the way he's commanded us.

    This summarizes WHAT the Christian walk should be like, for which I have had to learn, very harshly, this weekend.

    The narrow path seems like the hardest road, oddly enough, in following God's commands so far I have found everything in life is actually "easier" to take, but as humans we always think we have things going good, little knowing that God can see ahead of us and knows we can be choosing a direct road to destruction. To sum up my Christian walk, I still have yet to gain more trust and faith in God.
    "1 John 5:3-5
    This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God."

    Also, praise God that though we mess up and sin, if we repent (like I am now,) he will make a way anew for us again, since after Jesus' death there is no longer condemnation. However, I will be judged for what I did one day, and what a sore eternal regret it would be to stand before God one day and have him ask "So that one time when you were posting on MBTI Central making all sorts of false statements when I told you not to..." But I know that "he will complete the good work began in me", and I am glad that daily I find it easier and easier to turn down sins and things in the past that would have attracted me.

    About Hell:

    There's also Bill Wiese's 23 mins in Hell: GodTube.com - 23 minutes in Hell

    Bill Wiese was a man that God showed Hell to, to which he wrote a book. Whether you believe it or not, for even some Christians don't, I, as a Christian, will accept that Hell is real.

    To summarize his video:
    He says that Hell is a place where God's presence is simply not there...meaning none of his blessings are there. There is no sunlight, food, water, sleep, air, or fellowship (no one can talk to another). And this is eternal. Since God is not there, God's enemy, the anti-God is. And they hate humans with a passion, because we were made in the image of God. They cannot hurt God, but they can hurt men.

  2. #2

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    One more thing:
    To answer the question of :
    Why we cannot escape either heaven or hell

    harsh as it is, God created the whole world. Before he created it, he already had US in mind.

    Meaning he already had plans to create you even before the earth was made. He wanted to make you because he wished you were there, that is why it's said God is a "loving God". He wanted us to be around, hence we were created. And no, you cannot be uncreated.

    His plans were for Adam and Eve to lead a happy life in the Garden of Eden, not knowing sickness or destruction all the days of their life. BUT, Adam disobeyed God and did the very thing that plunged all humanity (since we're his descendents and we're part of his DNA) into the very pit of hell.

    Hell is the place where God is NOT there.

    All of us were born AWAY from God.

    That is why humans are the only creatures on earth who were born unable to hear a voice of "instinct", that is God's voice.

    This is the simplest summary I can think of, cheers.

  3. #3
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    Meh, everyone has to believe in something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #4
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    Question to thread-starter:

    Why did God allow the Ha-Shoa?

    In fact, why does God permit all of the horrible things that go about these days? Is he not omnipotent, omniscient, and all-forgiving/loving?
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

    "Another roof, another proof." - Paul Erdős

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    Kudos to you for taking some time do some more study on the matter.

    In general, I would say the Christian message about "hell" is simply (as you suggest) the "place where God is not."

    Just like in a relationship: When you "sin" against other people (i.e., act selfishly), they will pull away from you or cast you out... and eventually you'll end up alone. That's relational hell... and with God, it seems it would happen simply on a larger scale according to Christian doctrine. And with people in hell, well, they have every choice to step out of it -- but continually choose to focus on the self to the exclusion of others, keeping themselves in it.

    I think your stuff comes across as preaching because you don't couch it in terms of "Here's what Christianity theology/thought seems to say," you use terminology that makes it sound as if you have the corner on reality, without having proven at all that your viewpoint is in fact the correct one. (So now it merely becomes a matter of "Here is what I believe" versus what someone else says they believe.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #6
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    Good lord, one can never get a question answered these days.
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

    "Another roof, another proof." - Paul Erdős

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  7. #7
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    Behold! For I come bringing confusion!

    Universalism is Not in the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 5:12-21 (New American Standard Bible)

    12Therefore, just as through (A)one man sin entered into the world, and (B)death through sin, and (C)so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

    13for until the Law sin was in the world, but (D)sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned (E)in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a [a](F)type of Him who was to come.

    15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of (G)the one (H)the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by (I)the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

    16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand (J)the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

    17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned (K)through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will (L)reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

    18So then as through (M)one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one (N)act of righteousness there resulted (O)justification of life to all men.

    19For as through the one man's disobedience (P)the many (Q)were made sinners, even so through (R)the obedience of the One (S)the many will be made righteous.

    20(T)The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, (U)grace abounded all the more,

    21so that, as (V)sin reigned in death, even so (W)grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    As you can plainly see as through Adam all were made sinners, through Christ all are made righteous. Everyone goes to heaven and there is no hell for human souls.

  8. #8

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    Good lord (who be watching keenly beside me right now), can one not even go out shopping for a few hours without returning tiredly to their computer seat to discover a troupe of impatient beings with a multitude of unanswered questions? This ESFP needs to party!

    From bottoms up...

    As you can plainly see as through Adam all were made sinners, through Christ all are made righteous. Everyone goes to heaven and there is no hell for human souls.
    Exactly. They are made righteous THROUGH Christ. Got Christ?

    In fact, why does God permit all of the horrible things that go about these days? Is he not omnipotent, omniscient, and all-forgiving/loving?
    WHAT? You want God to smite us with another flood? Thank goodness Jesus came so that God's wrath was withheld. Besides, men have freewill don't they? So another man can kill you if he wants to. You shouldn't complain, because if you didn't have free will you'd be God's robot.

    This time around, like Jen says, I'm gonna try to withhold my opinions and just try to answer according to the bible or just to reframe and reword things for human understanding.

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    And I of course will abstain from this thread because I have no interest in discussing Dogma. I will leave this cartoon because it depicts what I think of this whole thing.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/135881-post9.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  10. #10
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungrypossum View Post
    WHAT? You want God to smite us with another flood? Thank goodness Jesus came so that God's wrath was withheld. Besides, men have freewill don't they? So another man can kill you if he wants to. You shouldn't complain, because if you didn't have free will you'd be God's robot.
    But you see, I do not believe that anyone has freewill, and I have several arguments to back it up. Care to hear them?
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

    "Another roof, another proof." - Paul Erdős

    INTJ (I = 100, N = 100, T = 88, J = 43)
    Solitary/Idiosyncratic, 5w6 sp/sx
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