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  1. #1
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Default Why did Jesus have to die?

    Hey. I have a question.

    What is this guy talking about?

    I can't make sense of it. God of love? Check. God of justice? You've lost me.

    Why is there not forgiveness of sins without punishment of sins?

    Why is it bad if Jesus is just a therapist?

    Even if you don't agree with it, maybe at least we can figure out what this guy is trying to say. What exactly is going on inside his head? How are the ideas connected together? Even if it's wrong, at least we should understand his position. Otherwise, how are we to know were we need to disconnect misconnections inside his head to make it work right?

    Or if you think he IS right, explain yourself. Please.
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  2. #2
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    I've already expressed my thoughts on this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  3. #3
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    WHY DOES EVERYONE SEEM TO THINK I'M DEAD!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  4. #4
    heart on fire
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    The Christ of the Bible died because it is all a metaphor. Christ tells us he is the truth and then we witness what humans do to the truth. He tells us no one comes to God except through him, he has already told us that he is truth.

    I don't know what your guy in your video is talking about.

  5. #5
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    This isn't really the appropriate place for that.
    You don't have any qualified theologians here,
    but rather there is a plethora of people who are trained up in anti-Christianity.
    That video is one of a 15 week series.
    Unless people were to attend all 15 classes,
    there's no way they could get the full picture
    of one of the most complex theological questions of all time.

    You must know and understand the nature of God,
    the nature of sin, God's purpose for creating mankind, etc., etc.
    before you can understand - logically - why Jesus had to die.
    There are libraries of books that address the subject.
    An online forum can hardly do the question justice.

    Thankfully, salvation is by faith, not by logic.

  6. #6
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Talking

    But anyways, God had to put me down because I was, in his eyes, missusing my position. And before word spread about my ESTP'ish wild behaviour, the dude up there put some poor drunk that somewhat resembled me on a cross to make people think I was dead. Then he hid me in some kind of hollow to starve to death, but thankfully, my mother is a corpse-hugger so she went out to get me from my grave... And there I was, alive!

    Anyway. People thought I had been resurrected, and after a little while, God discovered that I was alive and made Judas rat my location out. But anyway, I outsmarted the old skydwelling dude by making a drunk that looked vaguely like me eat a lot of crappy food with my desciples. He was kind of bizarre, apparently he talked about them drinking my blood and stuff. O.O Party-crasher. But anyway, God didn't seem to notice the romans had killed off a drunk guy instead of me. I shaved off my beard, colored my hair, and took a hike. The guy hasn't bothered me since. And nobody seems to believe that i'm actually Jesus

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  7. #7
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    This isn't really the appropriate place for that.
    You don't have any qualified theologians here,
    but rather there is a plethora of people who are trained up in anti-Christianity.
    Honestly, I'm not very much impressed by people with a theology degree either. Their education tends to be just as biased, just in a different direction... and so I'm not sure how anyone can aim to have a handle of truth. No one steps outside their natural framework, to look at it from the outside.

    I don't think the people here are trained in anti-Christianity. There are a few strong cynics who just tend to give kneejerk reactions to these discussions, so they can be ignored. The rest are either learning or are old enough (and been part of enough religious experience) to have gone in their own directions, for valid reasons.

    Thankfully, salvation is by faith, not by logic.
    I agree with that thought. There's no way to truly 100% understand something, so it's got to be based on something other than knowledge/logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by antireconciler View Post
    Hey. I have a question. What is this guy talking about? I can't make sense of it. God of love? Check. God of justice? You've lost me.

    Why is there not forgiveness of sins without punishment of sins? Why is it bad if Jesus is just a therapist?

    Even if you don't agree with it, maybe at least we can figure out what this guy is trying to say. What exactly is going on inside his head? How are the ideas connected together?
    Well, he's not really saying anything that's out of the ordinary. This is very basic Christian theology that you'd hear in Sunday school or even in church itself.

    Basically, if God is holy, then anything that is unholy (i.e., sin) has to be eradicated or punished. And is he is a just God, then he has to balance the scales -- all wrong has to be punished/righted.

    In the OT, people would offer blood sacrifices (and it had to be blood -- an animal life) as temporary covering for their sins, and God would be graceful enough to look at this sacrifice as the intention to make reparation and thus offer forgiveness... in a sense, just like when people offer heartfelt apologies and mean it. So the wronged person can then offer forgiveness and the relationship is fixed.

    [But yes, there's a sort of metaphysical strand running through it all, a mystical thing where blood is almost magical or at least given that sort of power.]

    According to Christian thought, though, the sacrifices were only temporary. They couldn't truly cover up/repay for one's sins against God. This is where Jesus came in: The unblemished sacrifice, and God's own son, who said he would step in and take the place of all the other.

    However, yes, like you seem to be suggesting, I don't see why this changes anything at all. Why would punishing/killing Jesus -- actually an act of injustice, since Jesus was innocent -- somehow magically mean that suddenly the rest of us sinners were now seen as "clean."

    (Put in human terms, if you have a murderer, for example, and the judge convicts and murders a willing innocent man in his place, why on earth would this make the bereaved family feel that justice was truly done? Would justice have been done? No, it seems like more injustice on the part of the judge. The only "innocent" who could sacrifice something here would be the family itself, sacrificing their need for reparation in order to forgive the murderer and restore relationship, if the murderer was truly sorry.)

    One can try to say then that "logic" won't explain it and you just need faith to accept it... but I think if the whole scenario seems insensible, then one has to weigh carefully what ideas are worth putting faith into.

    There are basically a few ways that Christianity views Jesus' sacrifice, then. There's the Reparation/Scapegoat version this man is describing, where there is injustice caused by humanity's sin and Jesus died and somehow "paid for it" and now everything can be better.

    There's also Christus Victus (or some similar phrase), where Jesus showed God's power in overcoming death as well as his willingness and desire to forgive despite us having offended him. I personally lean more in this direction as I age, having been a parent.

    (After all, if "hell" is separation from God because we are self-centered and not moving towards God -- the result of our sin -- then Jesus' sacrifice is a wake-up call showing, yes, God is not keeping us locked in hell, actually loves us and wants us back, and the only thing stopping a restored relationship is US.)

    Those two positions have been around for centuries. There's at least one more main approach but I can't recall it right this moment.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #8
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    As I was taught...

    0. In the time before time Lucifer/Satan/The Devil/Old Scratch is God's right hand man and the most powerful created being. He gets a big head about it and rebels against God. He is supported by 1/3 of the angels in heaven. God creates Hell and casts Lucifer and the fallen angels into it. This is all necessary and part of the plan to provide humans with a choice so they can either follow God or burn in hell forever.

    1. God is love and love must be expressed, the ultimate expression of love is to die for someone.

    2. God creates everything including humans who are to be his best friends forever

    3. Humans are perfect, sinless, immortal and vegetarian as is all life on earth. They have no freewill and can only obey and worship God.

    4. Enter Satan and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God tells Adam not to eat it's fruit, if he does he will die. (When God speaks of death he is not referring to physical death but separation from God in hell.)

    5. Eve, who apparently did not get the memo about the tree and its fruit is talked into having a bite by Satan the talking limbed snake. Adam follow suit and also eats the fruit.

    6. God is cheesed off even though he knew this would happen and is all according to his plan. He kicks them out of the Garden of Eden, all life is cursed, carnivorous and mortal. Everything is still in its initial state of perfection until the Great Flood.

    7. Fast forward through and lot of tribal bullshit with the Hebrews and we arrive at the 1st Century A.D. According to God's plan (God being the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three and yet one, one and yet three in some crazy M.C. Escher type thing.) is to send the Son to earth, live as a man, preach and do magic tricks. Then when he is 33 he is crucified as a sacrifice. The penalty for sin is death and the only death which can pay for all of humanity's sins is God's. The crucifixion of Christ is God's grand expression of love to humanity.

    8. So now everyone must choose to either accept God's love or burn in hell forever. Eventually, soon according to some, Christ will return and end creation. Apparently he has a quota of souls to fill. Once all the willing souls are in heaven God will hug them and squeeze them and pet them and call them George.

    So that's it in a very large nutshell. Christ died because he is God, God loves humanity and the greatest expression of love for someone is to die for them.

  9. #9
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  10. #10
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    People like to be right, and everyone is in a way. At least from their own point of view, for a while. But that might be a philosophical discussion best saved for later. Dammit kiddo

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

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