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  1. #61
    Oberon
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    It certainly looks rather recursive, doesn't it. But who can really change his worldview by a simple act of will?

  2. #62
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    It certainly looks rather recursive, doesn't it. But who can really change his worldview by a simple act of will?
    Quite a conundrum, huh?
    I have pondered that.

    We're supposed to have choice over what we believe.
    But how can we choose a belief we don't believe in?
    Our beliefs seem almost inevitable and determined for us.
    (Unless of course we lack integrity and deny our beliefs, but that's just denial... it doesn't change what we actually believe.)

    Confused yet?

    *dances around ditzily*
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #63
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    I'm sorry to say, but the Jesus character died because it made for a better storyline.

  4. #64
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    We're supposed to have choice over what we believe.
    I am profoundly unconvinced of that.

    Our beliefs are shaped irrevocably by our experience and our response to it, only part of which (at most) is influenced by volition.

    Or so my experience tells me.

  5. #65
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I am profoundly unconvinced of that.
    Well, I was more describing what the conventional wisdom was ("it is supposed that..." was my intent) rather than what should ideally be the case.

    Our beliefs are shaped irrevocably by our experience and our response to it, only part of which (at most) is influenced by volition. Or so my experience tells me.
    Face it.
    We're so hosed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I'm sorry to say, but the Jesus character died because it made for a better storyline.
    People still love "Miracle on 34th Street" but Santa didn't have to die.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #66
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Did Jesus ever talk about how he would be freeing us all from this judgment through his death?

    I don't remember him every saying that, does he say it at the resurrection?
    wails from the crypt.

  7. #67
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    Well, one interesting thing is that the Romans Road / 4 Spiritual Points methodology was not what Jesus preached.

    He didn't really try to convince people they were going to hell as the focus of his message, which then would have demanded all the atonement discussion we're having here.

    Paul's the one who tried to connect the dots to create a systematic theology for the faith, based on his understanding of the OT Law and hooking Jesus into it. Evangelical faith, Christianity throughout the centuries, obviously was profoundly impacted by Paul.

    Jesus said (in a nutshell), "There's a new kingdom out there, it's a good one, and I'm inviting y'all to join -- Follow me."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #68
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Okay, so really the reason Jesus had to die was because Jews are assholes.
    wails from the crypt.

  9. #69
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    People still love "Miracle on 34th Street" but Santa didn't have to die.
    What kinda story would it be if Jesus just hopped off the cross and went home to eat a sandwich or something? The "He died for our sins" bit was probably the most significant part in the tale.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    Okay, so really the reason Jesus had to die was because Jews are assholes.
    Well, just the religious leaders of the time (i.e., "the church leadership" of today).

    There were lots of Jews who thought Jesus was pretty cool. Unfortunately, their opinions didn't count much to the leadership because they were (1) women, (2) tax collectors, (3) prostitutes, or (4) suffering psychological illness, among other things.

    Pretty amazing how Jesus delighted in those who didn't do all the right things but had open and good hearts, and how he spent his criticism on the people who did all the "right stuff" and held the "right beliefs" but had critical and closed hearts.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    What kinda story would it be if Jesus just hopped off the cross and went home to eat a sandwich or something? The "He died for our sins" bit was probably the most significant part in the tale.
    Actually, it's the "... and then came back to life again," but that one obviously hinges on the first.

    Which reminds me:
    Priest: "He died for your sins."
    Kurgan (laughs): "That shall be his undoing!"

    (sorry, I'm in a campy mood)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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